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Old 07-20-2019, 04:37 PM   #449
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Originally Posted by Summerwolf View Post
"Maxed out the potential from the pushrod v8 from the factory"......

No.

Also, wtf is "stage 1 cams" in relation to lt / ls tuning!?!? Lol. Please explain.
My bad, I guess they speak a different language in Chevy land. It means a cam that is to the stock cam what a "stage 1" on a Japanese car would be to the stock cam, slightly more duration and lift to shift the power curve upward.

Around 500hp on the LT1 is what I am reading from reasonable cam grinds. The C8 probably has somewhat similar cam specs. Any more intake duration/overlap would probably produce unacceptable loss of torque and worse idle to the OEM. The OEM is also not going to be able to use different headers since they have emissions to worry about.

How is 495hp @ 6450rpm not close to maxed out (rev limit is at 6600)? The C6 Z06 only spun to 7000rpm with titanium valves, this engine is not going to spin any faster without that kind of trick.

Last edited by serialk11r; 07-20-2019 at 04:55 PM.
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Old 07-20-2019, 04:58 PM   #450
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Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0 View Post
I wouldn't say the 86 is low on performance per dollar spent. It isn't the most powerful in a straight line, but it can hold its own in performance to cars that are much more expensive. Moreover, there is the intangibles like how it makes a person feel or how it behaves that increase its value. The 86 is also affordable, but many will eventually graduate from the 86 to more expensive cars as their incomes grow, so it isn't an odd thing to speculate on more expensive cars. We also have guys here who have moved from Lotus' or Cayman's to the 86 because it is a cheaper track car or because they can get better performance for an equal investment after tuning/modifications, so cross shopping talk may seem odd or out of place, but it isn't.
Performance comparisons must be numeric by nature. A stock FRS/GT86/BRZ of any trim loses most of them to similarly priced sporty cars. However, there is far more to value than performance per dollar, but that is a much more difficult discussion to have, and therefore doesn't sell well. My point was that we of all people should understand that because we chose a car that loses the performance per dollar argument damn near every time. So I found it funny, and perhaps a bit ironic, that some here are suggesting that the Corvette is superior to all others simply from a performance/dollar comparison.
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Old 07-20-2019, 05:10 PM   #451
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Snooze View Post
All it takes is a bit of research.
Stage 1 cams are one better than Stage 0 cams but one less than Stage 2 cams.



Here is a pic of 2 Stage cams.


Attachment 179630
Perk of GM - having their factory warranty covering you on the track. I wouldn’t touch anything except maybe a catback exhaust if I was picking up one of GM’s performance cars.

IMO - A track warranty (if you track) is too HUGE to pass up to be chasing some minor gains in HP (particularly if trying to argue a modded C7 over a C8). If Subaru told me I could have tracked my car and kept my warranty on my tS, my car would be in a very different situation.

I know at least one of you is going to mention committing insurance fraud, so just bite your tongue/hold your breathe if you think you can use a factory warranty when tracking your twin.
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Old 07-20-2019, 05:23 PM   #452
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J1Avs View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Snooze View Post
All it takes is a bit of research.
Stage 1 cams are one better than Stage 0 cams but one less than Stage 2 cams.



Here is a pic of 2 Stage cams.


Attachment 179630
Perk of GM - having their factory warranty covering you on the track. I wouldn’t touch anything except maybe a catback exhaust if I was picking up one of GM’s performance cars.

IMO - A track warranty (if you track) is too HUGE to pass up to be chasing some minor gains in HP (particularly if trying to argue a modded C7 over a C8). If Subaru told me I could have tracked my car and kept my warranty on my tS, my car would be in a very different situation.

I know at least one of you is going to mention committing insurance fraud, so just bite your tongue/hold your breathe if you think you can use a factory warranty when tracking your twin.
Huh?

I don't understand why you have quoted my flippant post.
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Old 07-20-2019, 06:23 PM   #453
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Quote:
Originally Posted by serialk11r View Post
My bad, I guess they speak a different language in Chevy land. It means a cam that is to the stock cam what a "stage 1" on a Japanese car would be to the stock cam, slightly more duration and lift to shift the power curve upward.

Around 500hp on the LT1 is what I am reading from reasonable cam grinds. The C8 probably has somewhat similar cam specs. Any more intake duration/overlap would probably produce unacceptable loss of torque and worse idle to the OEM. The OEM is also not going to be able to use different headers since they have emissions to worry about.

How is 495hp @ 6450rpm not close to maxed out (rev limit is at 6600)? The C6 Z06 only spun to 7000rpm with titanium valves, this engine is not going to spin any faster without that kind of trick.
It's very clear you know next to nothing about the ls / lt platform. If you're talking about "stage 1 cams" (only one btw) why are you bringing in OEM concerns?

That engine isnt close to being "maxed out" from the factory. Tuning is a question mark on this new platform but a cam swap and some headers and tuning can easily net some real power traditionally. There have been "recipes" to make 500 whp with basic naturally aspirated mods on the ls1 for years.... we are well beyond that at this point with the current generation of motors.

Also they'll use that motor as a platform to build on and a hand built version or a boosted version will come out in a couple years as a higher trim making more hp from the factory. Traditional gm stuff.
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Old 07-20-2019, 10:49 PM   #454
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Summerwolf View Post
It's very clear you know next to nothing about the ls / lt platform. If you're talking about "stage 1 cams" (only one btw) why are you bringing in OEM concerns?

That engine isnt close to being "maxed out" from the factory. Tuning is a question mark on this new platform but a cam swap and some headers and tuning can easily net some real power traditionally. There have been "recipes" to make 500 whp with basic naturally aspirated mods on the ls1 for years.... we are well beyond that at this point with the current generation of motors.

Also they'll use that motor as a platform to build on and a hand built version or a boosted version will come out in a couple years as a higher trim making more hp from the factory. Traditional gm stuff.
Yes I admit I don't know much about the platform...let me clarify, my claim is:
This is close to as much power as Chevy can give you in an NA engine from the factory without titanium valves.

OEM concerns because...The more power it makes from the factory, the less bang for buck you get from swapping in aftermarket stuff, which is expensive. The comparison with a cammed C7 is because the C7 is cheaper.

It's clear to me that there's much less to gain from a cam swap than in the LT1, given how the power has moved to the higher rpm ranges, and it's probably a bad idea to "add more cam" given where the power peak sits. I would not mess with the intake ports on a direct injection engine. More duration reduces low end torque, more lift reduces low speed efficiency and stresses the valvetrain more. My guess is this is an LT1 with slightly modified intake/combustion chamber and slightly longer duration intake cam, while the LT1 has a somewhat conservative cam in it.

Headers yes, but that's not something the factory can do, and it's not emissions legal in states that care about it. C7 and C8 are on equal footing here, they both can pick up similar gains for similar money.

Last edited by serialk11r; 07-20-2019 at 11:02 PM.
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Old 07-21-2019, 07:54 AM   #455
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Quote:
Originally Posted by serialk11r View Post
Yes I admit I don't know much about the platform...let me clarify, my claim is:
This is close to as much power as Chevy can give you in an NA engine from the factory without titanium valves.

OEM concerns because...The more power it makes from the factory, the less bang for buck you get from swapping in aftermarket stuff, which is expensive. The comparison with a cammed C7 is because the C7 is cheaper.

It's clear to me that there's much less to gain from a cam swap than in the LT1, given how the power has moved to the higher rpm ranges, and it's probably a bad idea to "add more cam" given where the power peak sits. I would not mess with the intake ports on a direct injection engine. More duration reduces low end torque, more lift reduces low speed efficiency and stresses the valvetrain more. My guess is this is an LT1 with slightly modified intake/combustion chamber and slightly longer duration intake cam, while the LT1 has a somewhat conservative cam in it.

Headers yes, but that's not something the factory can do, and it's not emissions legal in states that care about it. C7 and C8 are on equal footing here, they both can pick up similar gains for similar money.
Just do some research. There will be cam options available for every powerband, there have always been aftermarket valve train options, literally everything you said doesn't apply to the general "ls/lt" platform historically.

Why is titanium valves a big deal in your statement anyways, GM has used all sort of materials from the factory and the aftermarket has any option available.

Point is, how can anything be "clear to you" when gm hasnt realeased specs for the lt2? Nobody knows what's been changed or cam specs yet. Safe to say it's not a motor that's maxed out from the factory though. Based on history at least.
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Old 07-21-2019, 10:05 AM   #456
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Speaking of headers... these are pictures from the Chevy website. 2020 Corvette motor
Attached Images
  
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Old 07-21-2019, 11:29 AM   #457
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Speaking of headers... these are pictures from the Chevy website. 2020 Corvette motor
Gorgeous. They should've revealed that on July 4th.
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Old 07-21-2019, 12:40 PM   #458
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Originally Posted by Summerwolf View Post
Just do some research. There will be cam options available for every powerband, there have always been aftermarket valve train options, literally everything you said doesn't apply to the general "ls/lt" platform historically.

Why is titanium valves a big deal in your statement anyways, GM has used all sort of materials from the factory and the aftermarket has any option available.

Point is, how can anything be "clear to you" when gm hasnt realeased specs for the lt2? Nobody knows what's been changed or cam specs yet. Safe to say it's not a motor that's maxed out from the factory though. Based on history at least.
It's naturally aspirated...the specific torque (and also features list) has not changed enough to suggest any significant changes in design, the rev limit has not gone up much, and the power peak is right next to the rev limit, peak torque is at a relatively high 78% of rev limit. The cams are fixed profile with phasing adjustment. Those things tell you a good amount, the big unknown is whether the intake manifold has variable length runners and whether or not they've changed the runner length, and also what tweaks to the exhaust have contributed. It could be the same cams with a very high-rpm oriented intake manifold, fairly aggressive cams with the same intake (that would be like the twins, which have a pretty long intake runner length giving you that 3000rpm local torque peak, dip at 3500, and a second peak high up from the high duration cams), or a mix.

495hp @ 6400rpm is 80hp/L at a specific torque of a little under 90Nm/L. A 2 valve/cylinder direct injection engine is not going to do much better than that from the factory, since they have to put crappy short headers on for emissions.

Note that the C6 Z06 produced very similar peak numbers at similar rpms with 13% more displacement but without VVT. The design differences (MPFI vs DI, VVT being the most important) you would expect to account for all of that. Essentially, through cam phasing the max retard intake/max advance exhaust position is "more aggressive" than the LS7 pushing the power higher up, and they've possibly done work to the intake ports to trade off a little low end combustion stability for flow.

Titanium valves are a big deal because they add several k to the engine's cost and would indicate a much more serious effort at performance. If it lets the engine go to say 7300rpm, I'd expect 530-560hp @6.9-7krpm depending on how the intake manifold is set up.

I'm not saying this engine won't go higher than that (more money always helps), I'm just saying this is a pretty good effort from the factory considering they didn't spend crazy money.

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Old 07-21-2019, 01:31 PM   #459
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There are many more videos...

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKMP_i-5XZI[/ame]
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmI4wCniT1k[/ame]
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0FjkvFQcso[/ame]
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIi8xrI068A&t=1s[/ame]
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bffra1n68Nk[/ame]
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Old 07-21-2019, 02:15 PM   #460
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I am eating my words...it's better looking than I expected...its cheaper than I expected...its faster than I expected...the interior is better than I expected....

I was hoping this would drive down C7 prices (and it will) but now I have to think long and hard because supercar....
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Old 07-21-2019, 02:32 PM   #461
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I read an article that makes it sound like a manual isn’t in the foreseeable future if ever. The Supra doesn’t stand a chance being so close in price to this thing. Seems a manual gearbox would at least give them one thing to market with.
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Old 07-21-2019, 02:38 PM   #462
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Quote:
Originally Posted by serialk11r View Post
It's naturally aspirated...the specific torque (and also features list) has not changed enough to suggest any significant changes in design, the rev limit has not gone up much, and the power peak is right next to the rev limit, peak torque is at a relatively high 78% of rev limit. The cams are fixed profile with phasing adjustment. Those things tell you a good amount, the big unknown is whether the intake manifold has variable length runners and whether or not they've changed the runner length, and also what tweaks to the exhaust have contributed. It could be the same cams with a very high-rpm oriented intake manifold, fairly aggressive cams with the same intake (that would be like the twins, which have a pretty long intake runner length giving you that 3000rpm local torque peak, dip at 3500, and a second peak high up from the high duration cams), or a mix.

495hp @ 6400rpm is 80hp/L at a specific torque of a little under 90Nm/L. A 2 valve/cylinder direct injection engine is not going to do much better than that from the factory, since they have to put crappy short headers on for emissions.

Note that the C6 Z06 produced very similar peak numbers at similar rpms with 13% more displacement but without VVT. The design differences (MPFI vs DI, VVT being the most important) you would expect to account for all of that. Essentially, through cam phasing the max retard intake/max advance exhaust position is "more aggressive" than the LS7 pushing the power higher up, and they've possibly done work to the intake ports to trade off a little low end combustion stability for flow.

Titanium valves are a big deal because they add several k to the engine's cost and would indicate a much more serious effort at performance. If it lets the engine go to say 7300rpm, I'd expect 530-560hp @6.9-7krpm depending on how the intake manifold is set up.

I'm not saying this engine won't go higher than that (more money always helps), I'm just saying this is a pretty good effort from the factory considering they didn't spend crazy money.
CAM, cam. It has one. The motor will enjoy a variety of aftermarket options as well as oncoming, probable upgrades / changes from the factory. It's no where near maxed out.
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