Wishes/petition for a low powered 86/BRZ (TRD/STI)?

[RaceR]

In Norway and several other countries the price of the 86 is very high. Im guessing some form of stupid engine taxes are the reason in other countries too. The main problem here is CO2, but HP is also high. A more fuel efficient version would be the best.

The sweet spot in Norway is to keep HP under 178hp and CO2 as low as possible. Emissions above 170g CO2 are bad.. (Edit: 165g CO2 in 2013)
Yes, the 86/BRZ is basically without competition if you want a proper sports car. But still it has high competition from normal cars since they often give you more bang for the buck (due to HP/CO2 taxes).

Im guessing that a 86/BRZ TRD/STI will be 250HP ++ if they go for a turbo/SC
In many countries like Norway, Finland, Iceland, Netherlands, Belgium (?), Denmark and probably others a car like that will be way to expensive for most people.
It would be great to have low consumption, "low HP" version of the TRD/STI. Say 200HP, but more efficient. Or just a lower powered and more efficient (normal) 86/BRZ.

Other people have wishes like that?
Maybe we could send a letter to Toyota and Subaru. Maybe it would help if many people sent the same type of letter?
I really do believe a (low powered) version with better fuel efficiency would be a benefit for both Toyota/Subaru and car enthusiasts in many EU countries. It would probably sell good in several countries outside EU with high engine taxes as well.

[Jimbo]

Sorry to hear that guy. Hopefully your citizens can change the laws before you lose all liberties. We fast on our way here in the USA down that path.

[RaceR]

Originally Posted by Jimbo

Sorry to hear that guy. Hopefully your citizens can change the laws before you lose all liberties. We fast on our way here in the USA down that path.

Thanks. Our laws are pretty good. Most people here have good economy and we are a very wealthy country with a good healt care system and many benefits. Wages are generally high, and taxes are high. But compared to the US we have a very different car culture. Especially when it comes to taxes on high HP and emissions.

Take BMW as an example. BMW 118I (F20) with 170HP is considered a good and pretty powerful engine. Compared to the average family car the BMW 116 (136hp) is considered to be above average. We also get a BMW 114I with 102 HP because it will be a bit cheaper compared to the 116I.
All three cars are almost the same in terms of engine components, all have turbos, so production cost is basically the same. Due to taxes selling price is different.
The 126HP version of the MX-5 is the "normal version" here. 2L with 160HP is available but not sold that much due to price difference.
We have normal Porsche Boxter with 265hp. But there is also a 211hp version available (down tuned).
Having a lower powered 86/BRZ would be great. Yes, I can afford the 86. But i could trade of some horses so that I would get more car for my money. And im betting many other people would as well.
For the record the 86 is a bargain compared to a WRX (/STI), 370Z, Genesis Coupe and cars like that here. Which is the reason why cars like that are not sold new from the dealerships.

[firehawk]

Yep, it's pretty much the same here in Finland. Engine displacement and CO2 emissions have a massive effect on the vehicle tax applied to a car's suggested retail price. The GT86 costs 46K euros over here, and ~14K of that is vehicle tax.

This is why it's kind of amusing to see people compare the 86 to a base model 3.7L V6 Mustang, when it's a lot more expensive over here (66K euros). The STi and 370Z both start at 76K.

But yeah, for a purpose-built RWD sports car, the 86 really is a bargain - the closest competitor is probably the Mercedes Benz SLK 200 which starts at 57K.

[RaceR]

In Norway the 86 is 457.500 NOK and have about 195.000 NOK in taxes.
That would translate to 61824 EURO and 26351 Euro in taxes.
(HP, CO2 and weight)

So you guys have displacemant taxes but not HP? So less HP would not have anything to say. But less CO2, would help?
So it would have less taxes with say 2.0L turbo, 270HP and 160G CO2?

The new 1.5L 3-cylinder BMW engine will probably be great in Finland. Not that bad in terms of taxes in Norway either..

HP and displacement taxes are so stupid!
Engine (and weight) taxes in general are...

The standard BRZ (low spec) have 159g CO2.
The high spec models have 181G CO2.
Source Subaru

How can the difference be that big??? Im comparing manual transmissions..
LSD, a fraction wider tire footprint and some ekstra kilos adding that much conumption??
I once read that FR-S had 160G CO2 with manual. Anyone have the numbers for the manuall FR-S?

[firehawk]

Yeah, CO2 is a major factor in determining the tax percentage. The funny thing is that the automatic GT86 gets over a thousand euros less tax than the manual because is has lower emissions (164g vs 181g). The base price is higher, however, so the manual ends up a bit cheaper in total.

Smaller turbocharged engines tend to have lower combined emissions, so they get considerably lower tax rates. The Mini Cooper S does 136g/100km and gets only ~6600 euros of tax (costs ~30K total). That's ~22% of tax compared to 30% on the manual GT86.

[RaceR]

Originally Posted by firehawk

Yeah, CO2 is a major factor in determining the tax percentage. The funny thing is that the automatic GT86 gets over a thousand euros less tax than the manual because is has lower emissions (164g vs 181g). The base price is higher, however, so the manual ends up a bit cheaper in total.

Smaller turbocharged engines tend to have lower combined emissions, so they get considerably lower tax rates. The Mini Cooper S does 136g/100km and gets only ~6600 euros of tax (costs ~30K total). That's ~22% of tax compared to 30% on the manual GT86.

42% of the GT86 price in Norway are taxes! Cooper S is very "tax friendly" over here as well..

In Norway the manual and the automatic 86 cost the same. Dealerships will actually earn more money by selling the Automatic version!
The difference between 181g and 164g CO2 is 3987 EURO in taxes! (used the newly released tax calulator for 2013)

I noticed that the version of the BRZ with minimum equipment only have 159g CO2! Why I was thinking. I managed to find it out by looking at some numbers... It is mostly because of the gear ratio of the LSD. Manual transmissions are the same in terms of gear ration. But the ratio on LSD is 4.1.
Ratio on the open diff is 3,727. That is mainly where the difference in CO2 output is to be found.
BRZ Limited (Manual + LSD) = 181g CO2 @ 1239kg
BRZ (Manual + open diff= 159g @ 1202 kg
BRZ AT (Automatic + LSD) = 164g CO2 @ 1262kg

BRZ is not out in Norway yet, but it will most likely be the Limited. After my findings on CO2 I sent mail to Subaru hoping they will import the "basic" BRZ and offer LSD as an option installed by them afterwards.. :P
I will talk to Toyota about this too..

I am also curious if it would be possible to get the Limited car with the open diff. Save a lot of taxes and then make the dealership put on the LSD afterwards. :P
Say the Limited with open diff would have 164g og CO2. (Not that they have that number, if lucky they could import it with the taxes of the "basic" BRZ)That would save us Norwegians 3987 Euro in taxes (@164g CO2). If the dealership would put on the LSD afterwards that would probably add about 2000 EURO. So basically a total of 2000 EURO saved in taxes and still have the LSD. I highly doubt that will happen. But I will check! :p
Since u guys in Finland only save 1000+ EURO in taxes it would not be worth it...

Subaru Norway informed me they got the 150HP XV diesel downtuned to 109hp! :P They named it the 2,0L DL (L for Low powered?). Only available in Norway as far as I know. But that car is a best seller, so they could justify to put money into making a lower output version.
Considering the very low amount of BRZ cars being sold in Norway, and the limited numbers they will have available to sell, Subaru can not justify the work to get a ECU-downtuned "L" version of the BRZ
But maybe EU could get something done?
Still waiting reply from Toyota EU. Have not mailed Subaru EU about that yet...

[Leepox]

Yeah, Scandanavian countries have it really tough. Being from the UK, I thought car/petrol prices here were extortionate. That was up until last year when I had a trip to Copenhagen and Helsinki that I realised I had it easy after all.

[RaceR]

Originally Posted by Leepox

Yeah, Scandanavian countries have it really tough. Being from the UK, I thought car/petrol prices here were extortionate. That was up until last year when I had a trip to Copenhagen and Helsinki that I realised I had it easy after all.

yeah.. UK car prices are only a wet dream for me! :p

You guys have some of the best prices in EU...
A BMW M135I is cheaper in UK than a 116I without any options here.

In Norway the engine taxes alone on a BMW M135I is more than a M135I with all options in the UK..

[Lasse]

First thing what i would do, is bring lower spec car to the scandinavian market. I believe you could loose few thousand euros, if they remove touch screen/navigator, leathers, keyless go-system and xenon lights.

[RaceR]

Originally Posted by Lasse

First thing what i would do, is bring lower spec car to the scandinavian market. I believe you could loose few thousand euros, if they remove touch screen/navigator, leathers, keyless go-system and xenon lights.

You could contact a dealership and ask about the BRZ without any options. You would have lower CO2 and much less equipment. But you would also loose the LSD.
Not sure about how it would be in Finland. But in Norway the problem is not having a car with all options. The taxes are the main problem. 188g CO2 is the main problem. 200HP is a little more than "optimal"...

I have "studied" the engines in BMW 118,116 and 114I. They all have about the same fuel consumption. So I don't think it would be worth it for Toyta/Subaru to downtune the FA20 for the Scandinavian market like BMW do with their 118I. If they would, then the price would have to be lower as well... And I doubt the lost profit, and time and money spent on making downtuned engine would be worth the small amount of extra sales that would generate..

Hoping we will see the FA16DIT in car.. (1,6turbo) without too much HP.

(FA20 in front FA16DIT in the back)
Those engines was revealed at the same time!





Hopefully they could just make a little bulge/intake scoop on the hood and do some other modifications to make it fit..
Or do some changes to the piping and place the intercooler and turbo on the FA16DIT where they are able to fit them..

[Lasse]

Originally Posted by RaceR

You could contact a dealership and ask about the BRZ without any options. You would have lower CO2 and much less equipment. But you would also loose the LSD.
Not sure about how it would be in Finland. But in Norway the problem is not having a car with all options. The taxes are the main problem. 188g CO2 is the main problem. 200HP is a little more than "optimal"...

In Finland, we also pay car taxes from equipments. What higher the C02 is, the more expensive is to get amenities. For example leather adds like 3K€ to the price. So it would be nice to get just cruise control, air conditioning, normal key and LSD for like 39K€ - 41K€. I don't need HID, leather, keyless-go or touch screen navigator... Subaru BRZ is even more expensive than GT86, and i don't believe that we can order basic brz in finland.

Problem is that i love the FA20 engine. It is everything what modern time 1.6 family car turboengine is not. It is charismatic, rev happy, very responsive, good on fuel in reality and it's overbuild. Nice engine to drive hard

This is tough situation for scandinavian customers.. I'm pissed that most modern turboed cars can't get that mileage what are promised. But they will get their tax benefits cos their reported mileage is so good. And reality is very different..

Edit: And yeah, there is enough room for turboengine.

[RaceR]

Subaru dealerships here will most likely not sell the Basic version of the car. But the dealership i contacted talked with Subaru Norways head office and they could offer the basic version. (I was not that impressed by the price tough)
You could just add the LSD yourself, and at the same time buy an more awesome diff (Like OS Giken? Not sure if you in that case would end up with the more eco ratio due to maybe swapping ring gear from the stock diff).
I believe the normal version have climate, not just dual automatic climate. But you would get the 16" inch wheels (which I think look cool, and would be great for winter) and smaller breaks.
In Norway it would not be worth it to leave all the options when you would add the cost of the LSD and consider that you then wont save much. Resale value would also be less.

Originally Posted by Lasse

This is tough situation for scandinavian customers.. I'm pissed that most modern turboed cars can't get that mileage what are promised. But they will get their tax benefits cos their reported mileage is so good. And reality is very different..

This statement seems to be true..
I like NA, even tough I am not impressed by the torque and the torque dip from the boxer in the car...
You get more bang for you buck by buying a premium F20 118I here. (in terms of HP and torque those engines are very underrated)

Ill just take my time and see what happens... Have not even had the opportunity to try the car with manual transmission. Everybody knows most cars in Norway are sold with manual and that a sports car like the GT86 should have manual gear. But still most dealerships have automatics as democars! Which I am 98% sure is due to higher profit since they save so much on CO2 taxes on it..

[Lasse]

Originally Posted by RaceR

Ill just take my time and see what happens... Have not even had the opportunity to try the car with manual transmission. Everybody knows most cars in Norway are sold with manual and that a sports car like the GT86 should have manual gear. But still most dealerships have automatics as democars! Which I am 98% sure is due to higher profit since they save so much on CO2 taxes on it..

You should try manual, i loved that car. Very nice transmission to use and car felt quite fast in smaller gears. I believe mileage will be very good too.

I think my only option is import used GT86 from Germany in few years. That will be cheapest way.