follow ft86club on our blog, twitter or facebook.
FT86CLUB
Ft86Club
Speed By Design
Register Garage Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   Toyota GR86, 86, FR-S and Subaru BRZ Forum & Owners Community - FT86CLUB > 2nd Gens: GR86 and BRZ > BRZ Second-Gen (2022+) -- General Topics

BRZ Second-Gen (2022+) -- General Topics General topics for the second-gen BRZ


View Poll Results: Would you put money down for the new pan?
YES! Take my money and give me a delivery date! 3 37.50%
Maybe... its too expensive though. 4 50.00%
No, not interested 1 12.50%
Voters: 8. You may not vote on this poll

User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 09-12-2024, 02:10 PM   #15
ruturaj001
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2022
Drives: BRZ 2023
Location: Washington
Posts: 281
Thanks: 233
Thanked 104 Times in 78 Posts
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by zeroomega View Post
STI team did an oil path analysis on their FA24DIT engine on their WRX endurance race car and part of their improvement is to add a small vertical baffle to the timing chain cover to help oil return back to the pan when car transit from left turn to right turn.
I assume this is hard to do?
ruturaj001 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2024, 03:51 PM   #16
zeroomega
Member
 
zeroomega's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Drives: Supra MKV, FR-S
Location: Bay area, CA
Posts: 76
Thanks: 22
Thanked 78 Times in 32 Posts
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ruturaj001 View Post
I assume this is hard to do?
I am not sure. STI engineers didn't mention how they attach the vertical baffle in place. From the graph, it blocks the oil from flowing around the oil pickup tube section in the timing chain cover area.
Name:  shot.jpg
Views: 450
Size:  315.6 KB
zeroomega is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to zeroomega For This Useful Post:
ruturaj001 (09-15-2024)
Old 09-12-2024, 04:27 PM   #17
zeroomega
Member
 
zeroomega's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Drives: Supra MKV, FR-S
Location: Bay area, CA
Posts: 76
Thanks: 22
Thanked 78 Times in 32 Posts
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frost View Post
Nice to finally "meet" you and thanks to all of your work and 900BRZ. It's a godsend and what got me finally off my ass to get it started on my end.

I already have the original prototype (call it v1) in my car and there are promising results but we don't want to release data on it just yet because it is not the production model yet. Mine has a bunch of features for making it easy to retrofit or change features during testing. The v2 basically strips it down to as close as production will be and then we are going to go test it out and that will be the proper data to release.

That said, the data we harvested on the v1 (but with Nankang CRS 245 square and -3 alignment front, -2.5 rear) was very helpful (most importantly: I didn't blow my engine - oil analysis inbound as well) and that's what's driving some feature changes in the new pan. We pulled ~1.5G on the corners compared to the 1.1 on stock tires so it's been battle tested.

The vertical baffling is helpful to mitigate the right hand turn drops in our opinion because whatever oil that does return in preceding turns can stay near the pickup area instead of moving off away. The baffles are also designed for the operating temperatures of the stock oil without cooling and yes, I did have the same concern about it coming off and clogging the pickup tube but the design has mitigated most of those concerns.

Sit tight, we're about to go do final testing soon and the data will be ready to release shortly. Bear with us! I'm just as excited as everyone else is.
I would say me included, there will be a portion of potential buyers will be concerned if the baffle plate has moving parts like rubber flap (which could degrade from old age). The lower pan is not something that can be take out of the car easily for inspection and a falling flap will cause catastrophic engine failure. (see
, while the video claim the engine might have already failed before the flaps fall off. But it is a fact the flaps failed). We also see even without a complex baffle, a larger oil pan itself will improve oil starvation situation dramatically. It would be hard to argue the performance gain from a falling trap door out weight the risk of engine blow up when trap door falls.

I would say hypothetically if I buy your large oil pan, I would definitely remove all the rubber flap trap doors if they present.
zeroomega is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to zeroomega For This Useful Post:
Frost (09-12-2024), OldBiker (09-12-2024), ruturaj001 (09-15-2024)
Old 09-12-2024, 10:53 PM   #18
Frost
CASC-OR T.A. Director
 
Frost's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Drives: '13 Prius, '22 BRZ
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 1,598
Thanks: 416
Thanked 917 Times in 583 Posts
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by zeroomega View Post
I would say me included, there will be a portion of potential buyers will be concerned if the baffle plate has moving parts like rubber flap (which could degrade from old age). The lower pan is not something that can be take out of the car easily for inspection and a falling flap will cause catastrophic engine failure. (see
, while the video claim the engine might have already failed before the flaps fall off. But it is a fact the flaps failed). We also see even without a complex baffle, a larger oil pan itself will improve oil starvation situation dramatically. It would be hard to argue the performance gain from a falling trap door out weight the risk of engine blow up when trap door falls.

I would say hypothetically if I buy your large oil pan, I would definitely remove all the rubber flap trap doors if they present.
Thanks for the feedback and video link. We will take it into consideration.
__________________
Want the best quality track times for new personal bests? Come on out to Ontario Time Attack!!!

OTA LIVE TIMING LINK
Frost is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-16-2024, 04:10 PM   #19
OldBiker
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2023
Drives: 2023 Gray BRZ
Location: SoCal
Posts: 86
Thanks: 75
Thanked 92 Times in 45 Posts
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
One more reason not to have rubber flaps (or rubber anything) near hot engine oil :-)
(Generally interesting video for the mechanically inclined...)


OldBiker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2024, 09:37 PM   #20
Frost
CASC-OR T.A. Director
 
Frost's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Drives: '13 Prius, '22 BRZ
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 1,598
Thanks: 416
Thanked 917 Times in 583 Posts
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by OldBiker View Post
One more reason not to have rubber flaps (or rubber anything) near hot engine oil :-)
(Generally interesting video for the mechanically inclined...)


While a neat video, if properly selected and designed, the rubber flaps can last a very long long time.

There's already plenty of rubber parts that undergo mechanical and thermal stress in your car joints for example. That said, I do understand why people can have concerns.
__________________
Want the best quality track times for new personal bests? Come on out to Ontario Time Attack!!!

OTA LIVE TIMING LINK
Frost is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2024, 10:11 PM   #21
Ohio Enthusiast
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Drives: 2018 BRZ
Location: Dayton, OH
Posts: 980
Thanks: 1,425
Thanked 835 Times in 478 Posts
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frost View Post
if properly selected and designed, the rubber flaps can last a very long long time.

There's already plenty of rubber parts that undergo mechanical and thermal stress in your car joints for example. That said, I do understand why people can have concerns.
I know that the Lotus Evora came with flaps in the oil pan in the GT variant, and potentially late in the 400 variant as well. They are a maintenance item with a short interval (2 years) and people claim they become brittle and break quite quickly (i.e. it's not an exaggerated interval). Perhaps a bigger OEM could design a baffle flap system that doesn't need frequent servicing. Does any other cars come with them from the factory? I couldn't find any in a quick search (even for cars that I would expect to have them like a 911 GT3) - most hits are for aftermarket oil pans. I can imagine them moving to dry-sump instead, so perhaps flaps are a niche solution.
Ohio Enthusiast is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2024, 11:32 AM   #22
Tomyyyu
Member
 
Join Date: May 2023
Drives:
Posts: 79
Thanks: 19
Thanked 21 Times in 17 Posts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by zeroomega View Post
I am not sure if vertical trap door is a good design choice. The reason why the GR86 starve oil on lateral g is not primarily due to oil leaving the pan under lateral g, but the oil cannot return back to the pan from engine head and timing chain cover under lateral g. There is a very detailed Subaru paper illustrate that. STI team did an oil path analysis on their FA24DIT engine on their WRX endurance race car and part of their improvement is to add a small vertical baffle to the timing chain cover to help oil return back to the pan when car transit from left turn to right turn.

Rubber flaps are a bit risky if it is close to the pick up tube as it may fall off and clog the pickup, causing engine blow up immediately. And that already happened on a few 86 owners on the internet. For this specific engine, the baffle will be relatively more effective if it can block or slow down the oil from entering the timing chain cover under braking, as shown in SYMs oil pan design.

I assume you already have a prototype pan on your car. Did you run any oil pressure data logging with it? How does it data looks like compared to OEM pan?

BTW, I am nostreetracing86 on youtube. I am the first person to illustrate FA24 oil starvation issue on this forum.

Wow. This would be an interesting read. Any chance you can share it with us?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Tomyyyu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2024, 10:16 PM   #23
zeroomega
Member
 
zeroomega's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Drives: Supra MKV, FR-S
Location: Bay area, CA
Posts: 76
Thanks: 22
Thanked 78 Times in 32 Posts
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomyyyu View Post
Wow. This would be an interesting read. Any chance you can share it with us?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Sorry, the people who own the paper copy of the technical paper don't allow us to share it in public.

The title is
"エンジン内オイル挙動予測モデル構築と 2023年NBR エンジン検討への適用"
"Calculation Model Development for Oil Behavior in Engine and Application to 2023 NBR Engine Calculation"

Published in SUBARU技報 https://ndlsearch.ndl.go.jp/books/R1...1425-i31543057

If you have friends in Japan, the paper copy can probably be found in the library.
zeroomega is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to zeroomega For This Useful Post:
Tomyyyu (11-02-2024)
 
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Delta Dash Road Dyno Help Ghost of Akina Scion FR-S / Toyota 86 GT86 General Forum 0 06-13-2015 01:00 PM
Who from Illinois is staying at the Delta in Sault Ste. Marie? FRSNewb CANADA 3 05-28-2014 05:02 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:33 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging v3.3.0 (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2024 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

Garage vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.