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Old 07-31-2022, 09:07 AM   #1205
captain awesome
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It might resolve some issues, but I'm going to put the ball back in KPower's court. I spent the last three hours pulling the Haltech, adapter board, engine harness and checking continuity everywhere.

Ends up that the engine harness shares ground for every thing on it from sensors to coils to ECU, rather than having a separate sensor ground.

Now you can all quit listening to me talk like a crack smoker about oil temps. I'm assuming this has also been affecting crank position sensors, cam position sensors, etc since they also share the ground.

I imagine that having shared grounds throughout the harness pretty much kills any chance of a "patch" harness?
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Old 07-31-2022, 11:16 AM   #1206
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I haven't, it is our off season here in Arizona The only data I have before is the few days I did with the car at 320whp before pulling it apart. I'll see what I can do when the time comes though.



I bought a set of valve guides because that was my hope too, but I think they should show pretty much only only on decel / cold start... so I think you're right that it is the oil control rings. rip

I'm really curious to see how yours does with the Todas/head, the way the torque falls off above 5200ish on these seems to say it all.

I went out to test the oil temp stuff, here is a 1-2 pull and then a full 3rd gear pull for you.



Shielding the two DBW signal wires on the engine harness side didn't fix the issue, for what it is worth. I have shielded jumper harness wires for those two also, but I'm not real optimistic.

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Originally Posted by geraldjust View Post
any other sensor going wild? if not most likely just learning procedure.
Nope, not that I am aware of. If it's just learning procedure that's good news to me but if anyone else can confirm if they've had something similar happen lmk.
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Old 07-31-2022, 03:32 PM   #1207
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I imagine that having shared grounds throughout the harness pretty much kills any chance of a "patch" harness?
Mmm, I think it depends on what is going on and how the harness is put together. This might be a mis-pin on my harness or by design, I'm not sure yet, depends on what KPower says.
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Old 08-01-2022, 08:48 AM   #1208
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedReplicant View Post
It might resolve some issues, but I'm going to put the ball back in KPower's court. I spent the last three hours pulling the Haltech, adapter board, engine harness and checking continuity everywhere.

Ends up that the engine harness shares ground for every thing on it from sensors to coils to ECU, rather than having a separate sensor ground.

Easiest way to check to see if your harness has this issue is to unplug the AC1 plug, unbolt the two ring connectors from the valve cover, stick an ohm meter on one, and stick an ohm meter into one of the sensor grounds like the oil pressure/temp sensor. If there is continuity then there is shared ground between sensors and everything else.



Now you can all quit listening to me talk like a crack smoker about oil temps. I'm assuming this has also been affecting crank position sensors, cam position sensors, etc since they also share the ground.

They all share the the same ground because thats what Honda does. I noticed this too when I was building my chassis harness and testing the kpower engine harness...Haltech and HPA both say all sensors need dedicated sensor grounds but if you look at the OEM wiring for a acura TSX with a k24 they just ground EVERYTHING to the block, and I believe that is what Kpower followed when they designed their harnesses. And at this point you would have to make your own engine harness to get it the grounds separate.
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I swear I will punch your car if you put these on. Right in the face.
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Old 08-01-2022, 12:50 PM   #1209
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They all share the the same ground because thats what Honda does. I noticed this too when I was building my chassis harness and testing the kpower engine harness...Haltech and HPA both say all sensors need dedicated sensor grounds but if you look at the OEM wiring for a acura TSX with a k24 they just ground EVERYTHING to the block, and I believe that is what Kpower followed when they designed their harnesses. And at this point you would have to make your own engine harness to get it the grounds separate.
This is basically what KPower replied to me with this morning and they said they'd check a few other things.

I've seen logs from 4 cars with this swap so far, 3 of them have the same issue, whereas yours (the fourth) doesn't. The differentiating factor being the harness.

I dunno, I will see what KPower says, it is not clear to me why they can't replicate this with their test car.
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Old 08-01-2022, 01:18 PM   #1210
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedReplicant View Post
This is basically what KPower replied to me with this morning and they said they'd check a few other things.

I've seen logs from 4 cars with this swap so far, 3 of them have the same issue, whereas yours (the fourth) doesn't. The differentiating factor being the harness.

I dunno, I will see what KPower says, it is not clear to me why they can't replicate this with their test car. I guess I'll remove the oil sensor and throw it in the trash as one less possible oil path failure point if this doesn't get resolved since it is completely useless as-is.



Well.......I finally got a chance to look at my logs this past weekend at my hill climb event (my laptop was MIA for awhile, just got it back) and I noticed there was some spots where my oil pressure would drop straight down to almost 0 psi at full throttle 7000rpm and quickly jump back up to 72 psi... I'm pretty sure something about that would break the laws of physics if true, so I think i'm also be affected. My Oil temp jump around quite a bit as well but nothing too crazy.


EDIT: I forgot it could be possible to have been some slight oil starvation
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Old 08-01-2022, 01:29 PM   #1211
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Old 08-01-2022, 01:43 PM   #1212
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My Oil temp jump around quite a bit as well but nothing too crazy.


EDIT: I forgot it could be possible to have been some slight oil starvation
It becomes more evident at higher temperature due to the sensor resistance curve, all of the logs I've seen from your car are before the car is actually fully warmed up.

In either case, I see shifts in temp up to 30-40f in a second or two in your chart there even at lower temps.

The oil starvation thing doesn't seem great though, oof. What are the lat / long gforce, throttle, and brake plots looking like during those dips?

e: it appears that Honda do their grounding differently than most newer stuff, including Haltech, which is why this is starting to make a bit more sense. KPower is coming from doing KPro with a harness, which is effectively a Honda ECU.
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Old 08-08-2022, 07:56 PM   #1213
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Success, both oil temp and pressure are working as expected now.

TLDR: Move the oil sensor ground to sensor ground instead of normal ground

I talked to Gerald and he agreed with my grounding idea, so I made a list of grounds at the junction box, as shown left to right:



1. VTC solenoid / oil sensor
2. Crank position sensor / VTEC solenoid
3. Both cam position sensors
4. Ground ring, back of head
5. Coil 2
6. Coil 4
7. Coil 3
8. Coil 1
9. Ground ring, front of head
10. AC1 pin 44
11. AC1 pin 40
12. AC1 pin 37

I decided the cleanest way would be to add a new sensor ground junction box, so I bought:
1x https://www.corsa-technic.com/item.php?item_id=1697
1x https://www.corsa-technic.com/item.php?item_id=1698
10x https://www.corsa-technic.com/item.php?item_id=1104
10x (bought spares / expansion later) https://www.corsa-technic.com/item.php?item_id=698
1x https://www.corsa-technic.com/item.php?item_id=381
1x https://www.corsa-technic.com/item.php?item_id=291

Depinned ground junction box pin 1, cut off the second wire, pinned the VTC solenoid into the existing junction box, pinned the oil sensor into the new junction box (sensor junction box)

Depinned AC1 pin 34, cut one of the wires, pinned it into the new sensor junction box, soldered/heatshrank a new wire from the wire I cut on AC1 to the sensor junction box.




Nice thing is the junction boxes clip together to keep everything tidy. I think a cleaner way would be to crimp a new pin for AC1 instead of splicing, but whatever. I also intend to move the cam sensors and crank sensor to my sensor junction box since Haltech expects them to be sensor grounded.

This is an improperly working sensor graph (green line, bottom graph)



This is what a working sensor graph looks like (green line, bottom graph)

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Old 08-08-2022, 11:52 PM   #1214
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I wonder if Kpower will come up with a fix for those of us who already have the harness. They need to make this right. I still can't believe that they didn't catch this on their test mule during R&D.
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Old 08-09-2022, 12:05 AM   #1215
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I can. A buddy and I joked about what they touted as thorough testing well before they ever released the kit.
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Old 08-09-2022, 08:45 AM   #1216
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedReplicant View Post
Success, both oil temp and pressure are working as expected now.

I talked to Gerald and he agreed with my grounding idea, so I made a list of grounds at the junction box, as shown left to right:



1. VTC solenoid / oil sensor
2. Crank position sensor / VTEC solenoid
3. Both cam position sensors
4. Ground ring, back of head
5. Coil 2
6. Coil 4
7. Coil 3
8. Coil 1
9. Ground ring, front of head
10. AC1 pin 44
11. AC1 pin 40
12. AC1 pin 37

I decided the cleanest way would be to add a new sensor ground junction box, so I bought:
1x https://www.corsa-technic.com/item.php?item_id=1697
1x https://www.corsa-technic.com/item.php?item_id=1698
10x https://www.corsa-technic.com/item.php?item_id=1104
10x (bought spares / expansion later) https://www.corsa-technic.com/item.php?item_id=698
1x https://www.corsa-technic.com/item.php?item_id=381
1x https://www.corsa-technic.com/item.php?item_id=291

Depinned ground junction box pin 1, cut off the second wire, pinned the VTC solenoid into the existing junction box, pinned the oil sensor into the new junction box (sensor junction box)

Depinned AC1 pin 34, cut one of the wires, pinned it into the new sensor junction box, soldered/heatshrank a new wire from the wire I cut on AC1 to the sensor junction box.


Nice thing is the junction boxes clip together to keep everything tidy. I think a cleaner way would be to crimp a new pin for AC1 instead of splicing, but whatever. I also intend to move the cam sensors and crank sensor to my sensor junction box since Haltech expects them to be sensor grounded.

I vaguely comprehend what you have done, but since it appears to be a proper fix I'll probably patch mine up just the same. Highly doubtful that Kpower will issue any "fix" for this as most folks haven't even noticed it was a problem. Of course that's not a reasonable excuse to avoid it either.
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Old 08-09-2022, 12:48 PM   #1217
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Yeah, there were a fair few things missed in testing that should have come up prior, but it is what it is at this point.

This oil temp thing will slip past the majority of people since there is zero window into oil temp unless you either:
1. Plug an AIM Solo 2 DL / dash into the Haltech CAN network and choose to show oil temp
2. Datalog in Haltech and specifically look at oil temp
3. Set up Haltech failsafes based on oil temp and find out they are triggered all the time

I still have a few things left to do to shore up some shortcomings:
1. Make a bellhousing cover
2. Have the header completely rewelded with shielding gas or send it to hytech to be re-made when it inevitably cracks
3. Add more flex to the intake pipe to throttle body
4. Have the stock driveshaft shortened

All in all, I'm not dissatisfied with the kit but I have some remorse of not just splurging a bit to switch to an Exige when I was weighing doing this all.
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Old 08-09-2022, 08:25 PM   #1218
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As I said, I removed the oil temp sensor and repurposed it. I had a failsafe for the oil pressure that I removed because it would trigger a cold on startup, but only then. I have an oil pressure gauge, and I don’t datalog temps or pressures, as the oil pressure is so high compared to the FA20, and I have the JR radiator/oil cooler. I’m not tracking the car at this time. The long term plane is a built engine, CD009 and more power with track time, so maybe when the engine is out I’ll do this to the harness. None of this effects the tune, right? Thanks.
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