Is it my driving or is it the pads?

[ZDan]

Different drivers, even at the highest level of motorsports, can use the brakes very differently while turning same lap times in the same car. Always annoys me to hear it suggested that faster drivers are harder on brakes. Drivers can be slow and HARD on brakes, and fast drivers can be relatively easy on brakes. It's a very individual thing, surprisingly so. Combine that with the fact that some drivers prefer more aggressively "grabby" response while some prefer more linear response, and it turns out optimal brake pad choice is very much driver-specific, even for the same car and same lap times.

Hats off to @CSG Mike for encouraging me to try different pads a few years back from the Carbotech XP10s I'd been running for years and years! Tried Winmax W5 (good but noisy), Project Mu CR (not as much bite, particularly when cold), then finally CSG Spec C2 which I *love*, great bite, not too too noisy or dusty, IMO pretty "streetable" for between events, and last me a LONG time with the PP Brembos.

[blsfrs]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

While I understand your viewpoint, I do this for a living, and tend to scrutinize a bit more. There's still a few too many variables unaccounted for. The biggest one is line, and loading.

For example, I can drive identical lines, and cause understeer, or oversteer, in the same car, by adjusting my loading, while carrying virtually identical speed. This is a large part of the work I do for a living.

This is where the datalogs come in. While absolute readings (1st order derivative of velocity) show a result, relative readings, trends, some analysis will yield quite a bit more detail into HOW and WHY things happened (2nd order derivative, aka jerk).

Jerk, aka rate of change in velocity? I had to look that one up to make sure it wasn't a personal reference.


I'd like to see a lab test where pads are put on a test machine to determine who's observations are more correct. A lab test would minimize the variables and answer the question once and for all. It could also be a good teaching tool for endurance racers trying to maximize their brake life over the course of an event.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by blsfrs

Jerk, aka rate of change in velocity? I had to look that one up to make sure it wasn't a personal reference.


I'd like to see a lab test where pads are put on a test machine to determine who's observations are more correct. A lab test would minimize the variables and answer the question once and for all. It could also be a good teaching tool for endurance racers trying to maximize their brake life over the course of an event.

If you want to fund the effort, I'll happily reserve the lab time.

This data already exists; it's just not my data to share.

Jerk is rate of change in acceleration. Snap tends to go beyond any reasonable application.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by ZDan

Different drivers, even at the highest level of motorsports, can use the brakes very differently while turning same lap times in the same car. Always annoys me to hear it suggested that faster drivers are harder on brakes. Drivers can be slow and HARD on brakes, and fast drivers can be relatively easy on brakes. It's a very individual thing, surprisingly so. Combine that with the fact that some drivers prefer more aggressively "grabby" response while some prefer more linear response, and it turns out optimal brake pad choice is very much driver-specific, even for the same car and same lap times.

Hats off to @CSG Mike for encouraging me to try different pads a few years back from the Carbotech XP10s I'd been running for years and years! Tried Winmax W5 (good but noisy), Project Mu CR (not as much bite, particularly when cold), then finally CSG Spec C2 which I *love*, great bite, not too too noisy or dusty, IMO pretty "streetable" for between events, and last me a LONG time with the PP Brembos.

Alternatively, people try to tell me that I'm harder or easier on the engine than most (the side they pick depends on context), when in reality, WOT is WOT. I can't magically WOT more hard, or less hard, than a novice, or someone's grandma.

"Your engine lasts longer because you're more experienced and are being easier on the engine".

or

"You need an engine oil cooler because you drive your car harder than me"

[blsfrs]

"Snap tends to go beyond any reasonable application." So does crackle.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by blsfrs

"Snap tends to go beyond any reasonable application." So does crackle.

[blsfrs]

This would be cool but probably heavy.


The next generation of brakes: activated electromechanically instead of pneumatically

The Boeing B787 Dreamliner is the first commercial passenger aircraft to use electrically activated brakes instead of hydraulically activated ones. A system used in military aircraft since 1998 moved into the first airliner in 2011. Depending on the aircraft model, the electromechanically activated brakes replace several kilometers of hydraulic lines with cables. As a result, hydraulic fluid is no longer used anywhere in the entire brake system. This is considerably easier to maintain and compatible with the environment. Possible leaks are completely eliminated.

[Ultramaroon]

Should read "Possible leaks are replaced by possible electrical failures."

[Matt93SE]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Alternatively, people try to tell me that I'm harder or easier on the engine than most (the side they pick depends on context), when in reality, WOT is WOT. I can't magically WOT more hard, or less hard, than a novice, or someone's grandma.

"Your engine lasts longer because you're more experienced and are being easier on the engine".

or

"You need an engine oil cooler because you drive your car harder than me"

Dragging this one back up.. harder is.. well.. "harder".. WOT is WOT for sure, but its how you get there and what you do with it, and how close you come to that rev limiter that makes the differences.
are you downshifting to second near redline for a slow turn and had on the gas to exit, or are you staying in 3rd and carrying more speed? are you jerking on and off the throttle and banging off the rev limiter before you shift?
As you mentioned before, it's looking at the 2nd derivative (and sometimes the integral), not the first or just the max/min.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Matt93SE

Dragging this one back up.. harder is.. well.. "harder".. WOT is WOT for sure, but its how you get there and what you do with it, and how close you come to that rev limiter that makes the differences.
are you downshifting to second near redline for a slow turn and had on the gas to exit, or are you staying in 3rd and carrying more speed? are you jerking on and off the throttle and banging off the rev limiter before you shift?
As you mentioned before, it's looking at the 2nd derivative (and sometimes the integral), not the first or just the max/min.

For sake of argument, lets say the cars are automatic, and not paddle/manually shifted, because realistically, this comes up more with automatic cars.

[Matt93SE]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

For sake of argument, lets say the cars are automatic, and not paddle/manually shifted, because realistically, this comes up more with automatic cars.

automatic.. race car.. This does not compute. please check your answer and resubmit the form.

[TommyW]

I've been using PowerstopTrackday pads since I started doing track days. I went through a set my first 3 days I now get 7 or more. I attribute it to better braking and general driving technique and not using the nannies.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Matt93SE

automatic.. race car.. This does not compute. please check your answer and resubmit the form.

Most fast racecars are all auto.

Please modernize form and re-send application.

[Matt93SE]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Most fast racecars are all auto.

Please modernize form and re-send application.

GIVE ME STICK OR GIVE ME DEATH! I don't care if it's slower. Driving a GTR is like a freaking video game- it's just not real. turn the wheel, mash the gas mid corner, noise happens, flip little paddle on the steering wheel, different noise happens, brain smashes into the seat, car stays on track. no. unpossible!