New ICE Vehicles Banned in California by 2035

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

People say it because its true. Any vehicle could be advertised this way. Say Toyota asks you what you're driving then they show you the difference between driving a Prius and a Suburban as your "cost" for purchasing the car, but it really isn't. The upfront cost is the purchase price, not some theoretical cost based on driving habits and former car ownership.

If my first car is a Tesla, Tesla's "lower based" cost is a pure fabrication, as an extreme example.

Regardless of all that, I agree with you that until the magical 10 minute to refill to 300 mile battery comes along, swapping makes theoretical sense.

Personally though, however its done I don't won't to depend on the car OEM to provide me fueling/charging/switching infrastructure. I should have my pick similar to fuel.

I guess we'll see how it plays out over time.

Well they kind of do this on the window sticker with gas mileage. I think saying $20k Nio with $140/month swapping program or $12/month for renting the battery or $30k with the battery is fairly transparent and a great business model to give people options.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Ohio Enthusiast

OEMs are still fighting over a charging port standard (which is a relatively simple change and can even be solved via adapters in some cases). I see no chance that swappable batteries can become standardized in any significant way in personal vehicles.

This is where the government comes in. We have how many different electrical plugs in the world? Something like 15, yet every plug in the US has the standard 120/240v plugs.

The world would do well to standardize the plugs now, or we will just get many varieties or a situation like the US being on standard instead of metric and having too much cost to switch to metric or too much cost to change all homes to a world standard for electrical outlets.

[soundman98]

i'm still not convinced that the US market overall will accept a battery swap program.

tire rental doesn't really exist. but could be viable in the same regard at one-day track days.

people are too possessive of their cars stuff to 'rent'/'borrow' batteries while owning the rest of the car.

if we follow the beginnings of the gasoline vehicle, i really doubt we'll see any sort of standardization or calming of the market for at least the next 20 years. it's interesting to be a part of, but too many players all too aggressively fighting for a really tiny piece of pie.

[jflogerzi]

Pretty much the world is coming to a standard plug here in the US and European markets. The CCS plug is quickly becoming the plug. Even Tesla is moving supporting CCS plugs

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by soundman98

i'm still not convinced that the US market overall will accept a battery swap program.

tire rental doesn't really exist. but could be viable in the same regard at one-day track days.

people are too possessive of their cars stuff to 'rent'/'borrow' batteries while owning the rest of the car.

if we follow the beginnings of the gasoline vehicle, i really doubt we'll see any sort of standardization or calming of the market for at least the next 20 years. it's interesting to be a part of, but too many players all too aggressively fighting for a really tiny piece of pie.

Apple said the same thing about streaming music saying people want to own their music. Here we are with streaming services for music and video. Do young people own a music collection anymore? People lease cars. People rent vehicles. It doesn’t seem like a stretch. It all depends on liability.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

,,Do young people own a music collection anymore?

Actually, they do, but it is primarily as a "hobby". I have a early 20's son who has a vinyl collection that would surpass 90% of the same age kids in the late 60's, early 70's. Probably close to a 1000 albums. He has many friends with similar collections.

[soundman98]

i stream crap. in that i mean, anything i stream, i don't have much interest in owning. anything that i find entertaining/good, i will purchase. apple's issue was specifically a hard-stop at 'stream everything, own nothing', which doesn't work for a lot of people.

in a lot of ways, streaming has taken the place of how i used blockbuster video.

[NoHaveMSG]

Out of curiosity I wonder if carbon capture fuel tech can potentially change this ruling. F1 is working on this with their partner Aramco, and ran a Williams FW14B during a demo run last week. FIA's plan is to have all F1 cars running this by 2030. It doesn't reduce CO2 pollution, but pulls what is existing out of the air and works in standard ICE engines. I know that some of this tech is what is inticing engine manufacturers to entertain the idea of entering F1. It sounds like VW group is coming in, I know Porsche was working on an alt net zero fuel as well to allow them to continue ICE's. I know it is not ideal, but could potentially be a reasonable stop gap transition if it could be done effectively and in mass.

https://us.motorsport.com/f1/news/ve...fuel/10330558/

https://www.aramco.com/en/sustainabi...EaAlZHEALw_wcB

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG

Out of curiosity I wonder if carbon capture fuel tech can potentially change this ruling. F1 is working on this with their partner Aramco, and ran a Williams FW14B during a demo run last week. FIA's plan is to have all F1 cars running this by 2030. It doesn't reduce CO2 pollution, but pulls what is existing out of the air and works in standard ICE engines. I know that some of this tech is what is inticing engine manufacturers to entertain the idea of entering F1. It sounds like VW group is coming in, I know Porsche was working on an alt net zero fuel as well to allow them to continue ICE's. I know it is not ideal, but could potentially be a reasonable stop gap transition if it could be done effectively and in mass.

https://us.motorsport.com/f1/news/ve...fuel/10330558/

https://www.aramco.com/en/sustainabi...EaAlZHEALw_wcB

We addressed the idea of carbon capture in the Expert Prognosis For The Planet thread below:

https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=143867

I think carbon capture could be a good technology to aid in balancing CO2 in the environment. I don't know if it is the most efficient way of reducing CO2, and it probably would be ridiculous to try to use carbon capture to power all cars, but it could be used to power a subset of cars. Prices would need to come down with economy of scale because Engineering Explained has done a few videos on the topic with estimates that the fuel would cost $20+/gal, if I remember correctly, and I don't know if F1 needs to use carbon captured oil versus just using standard fuels because they aren't really a big contributor to the problem. In fact, they could probably use ethanol and be as close to carbon neutral for a fuel that they could ever get, even compared to carbon capture tech, especially if the carbon capture process didn't use renewable energy to operate the factory. I think it is good press for them.

[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

We addressed the idea of carbon capture in the Expert Prognosis For The Planet thread below:

https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=143867

I think carbon capture could be a good technology to aid in balancing CO2 in the environment. I don't know if it is the most efficient way of reducing CO2, and it probably would be ridiculous to try to use carbon capture to power all cars, but it could be used to power a subset of cars. Prices would need to come down with economy of scale because Engineering Explained has done a few videos on the topic with estimates that the fuel would cost $20+/gal, if I remember correctly, and I don't know if F1 needs to use carbon captured oil versus just using standard fuels because they aren't really a big contributor to the problem. In fact, they could probably use ethanol and be as close to carbon neutral for a fuel that they could ever get, even compared to carbon capture tech, especially if the carbon capture process didn't use renewable energy to operate the factory. I think it is good press for them.

Ahh, I didn't participate in that thread.

F1 won't use a high blend of ethanol due to the low energy density. This is actually the first year that they have run any ethanol in the non-refueling era, they are running E10 this year.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG

Ahh, I didn't participate in that thread.

F1 won't use a high blend of ethanol due to the low energy density. This is actually the first year that they have run any ethanol in the non-refueling era, they are running E10 this year.

They could all do it. It just means more refueling or 30% larger tanks and lines.

[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

They could all do it. It just means more refueling or 30% larger tanks and lines.

They could, I just don't think that is their goal.

[Dirty Harry]

I think carbon neutral fuel (eFuel) will be a thing, at least down here. Looks like a new commercial eFuel plant is opening in Tasmania with backing from Porsche.

https://www.drive.com.au/news/synthe...-for-tasmania/

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Dirty Harry

I think carbon neutral fuel (eFuel) will be a thing, at least down here. Looks like a new commercial eFuel plant is opening in Tasmania with backing from Porsche.

https://www.drive.com.au/news/synthe...-for-tasmania/

Porsche owners probably won’t mind paying the premium for eFuel.