Really, which is faster AT vs MT?

[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by Sapphireho

Yea, for a real duel clutch. A shit torque converter trans, I have to differ.

Some of the newer torque converter autos are not bad. I have driven some auto twins, they are not bad for slush boxes, the newer Supras are another example.

Another thing when comparing acceleration tests and times is you can’t launch most stock autos like you can a manual.

[PulsarBeeerz]

Originally Posted by OwlDance

When near every high performance racing series uses dual clutch/"auto" setups and CVTs and torque converters can also lock and hold gears with similarly end user operated mechanisms, yes, it doesn't ruin any chance of these vehicles being a driver's car.

I personally wouldn't try to tack on "auto"-matics onto DCTs because they not the same thing. Completely differing design, operation, and feel. This car has an old automatic, not another Toyota sourced 8 speed with sportier tuning which would have been great. Or maybe ZF 8speed. BUT, instead its stuck with automatic performance and tuning from 2012. The new engine helps a lot here.


CVTs; really? CVTs not ruining the driving experience explains all the sporty or performance cars they are not in.

[Ultramaroon]

Doesn't the torque converter lock up before even the 1-2 shift? I think the shift speeds are only limited by the strength/speed of the clutches and brakes.

[OwlDance]

Originally Posted by PulsarBeeerz

I personally wouldn't try to tack on "auto"-matics onto DCTs because they not the same thing. Completely differing design, operation, and feel. This car has an old automatic, not another Toyota sourced 8 speed with sportier tuning which would have been great. Or maybe ZF 8speed. BUT, instead its stuck with automatic performance and tuning from 2012. The new engine helps a lot here.


CVTs; really? CVTs not ruining the driving experience explains all the sporty or performance cars they are not in.

A locking TC and DCT accomplish the same thing in practice and the end user function is identical - you press a button and you select the next or previous gear ratio. A CVT that can hold ratios (like the WRX) is literally the exact same thing. The design and operation, and feel, may be different, but the end results and objective of such designs are identical.

The reason CVTs aren't used are because they're 1: a newer technology that isn't proven (nissans lol) and 2: currently they are incapable of holding significant power reliably, or at least outside their design parameters (IIRC WRX CVTs can't hold significantly more power).

I don't think CVTs belong in any performance vehicle, but for the overwhelming majority of users, being able to decide and hold a gear is going to accomplish the majority of the driving experience - which a locking TC, DCT, and ratio holding CVT are in practice, capable of doing, even if the CVT is the worst and least developed and advanced technology for performance (ignoring the F1 CVT, which is fundamentally a different paradigm than a road car's transmission.)

As for the A960e, the problem with it is that the gears are ridiculously spaced out. The technology behind it isn't fundamentally different in practice to an 8hp or aisin8spd.

[Yoshoobaroo]

Originally Posted by OwlDance

A locking TC and DCT accomplish the same thing in practice and the end user function is identical - you press a button and you select the next or previous gear ratio.

That’s like saying all transmissions accomplish the same thing

[PulsarBeeerz]

Originally Posted by OwlDance

A locking TC and DCT accomplish the same thing in practice and the end user function is identical - you press a button and you select the next or previous gear ratio. A CVT that can hold ratios (like the WRX) is literally the exact same thing. The design and operation, and feel, may be different, but the end results and objective of such designs are identical.

The reason CVTs aren't used are because they're 1: a newer technology that isn't proven (nissans lol) and 2: currently they are incapable of holding significant power reliably, or at least outside their design parameters (IIRC WRX CVTs can't hold significantly more power).

I don't think CVTs belong in any performance vehicle, but for the overwhelming majority of users, being able to decide and hold a gear is going to accomplish the majority of the driving experience - which a locking TC, DCT, and ratio holding CVT are in practice, capable of doing, even if the CVT is the worst and least developed and advanced technology for performance (ignoring the F1 CVT, which is fundamentally a different paradigm than a road car's transmission.)

As for the A960e, the problem with it is that the gears are ridiculously spaced out. The technology behind it isn't fundamentally different in practice to an 8hp or aisin8spd.

The end user function is identical.. With that logic all engines are the same, they all accomplish the same thing right? Is Engine. But they tend to have different characters , leading to different experiences for that end user. Are you just trying to say a transmission is a transmission? Yeah I agree a transmission has an input shaft and an output shaft. Magic happens in the housing, sometimes its cool, sometimes its not.



CVTs aren't new technology for mass production brands Audi and Honda have been using them for over 20s.

[Sapphireho]

MT is faster, and chicks dig it.

[BonelessChickenStrips]

Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG

Some of the newer torque converter autos are not bad. I have driven some auto twins, they are not bad for slush boxes, the newer Supras are another example.

Another thing when comparing acceleration tests and times is you can’t launch most stock autos like you can a manual.

You can do this, I don’t know if this is what publications do to test cars and I wouldn’t do this to mine lol

[BonelessChickenStrips]

Originally Posted by StormTrooper

This is sad.

The 86 is an experience car. Next thing I'll hear is that the CVT WRX is good and it doesn't ruin any chance of it being a drivers car.

This is probably bait, but I’ll take it anyways

I don’t think a cvt in the WRX is a bad idea. A CVT doesn’t take away 4 wheel drive or the turbo. I believe in the new one it even enhances it, don’t you get some fancy torque vectoring only in the 2022 CVT or something?

I will say though that the CVT in the wrx doesn’t seem like it’s very performance oriented though, definitely room for improvement

[2020BRZtS]

I put all 17 pages of information into the CSI Case Solver app and have the definitive answer: The one you are not driving. </thread>

[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by BonelessChickenStrips

You can do this, I don’t know if this is what publications do to test cars and I wouldn’t do this to mine lol

That helps, but is not the same. The closest is going to be a trans brake. I think the Demon is the only car that comes with one from the factory.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG

That helps, but is not the same. The closest is going to be a trans brake. I think the Demon is the only car that comes with one from the factory.

There was a good bit of discussion about launching the first-gen AT back in 2013. There is a limit of how much of this you can do because Toyota has a lock out built into their cars due to the "run away vehicle" garbage around that time frame. The car will only rev so far with the brake engaged, or something along those lines.

[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

There was a good bit of discussion about launching the first-gen AT back in 2013. There is a limit of how much of this you can do because Toyota has a lock out built into their cars due to the "run away vehicle" garbage around that time frame. The car will only rev so far with the brake engaged, or something along those lines.

Yeah, there should be a built in limit on DBW cars. Even without it you can only build revs so far before you start to spin the tires or push through the brake.

[BonelessChickenStrips]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

There was a good bit of discussion about launching the first-gen AT back in 2013. There is a limit of how much of this you can do because Toyota has a lock out built into their cars due to the "run away vehicle" garbage around that time frame. The car will only rev so far with the brake engaged, or something along those lines.

Someone should find out what that limit is and report back so I don’t risk my own trans