Track Day Excessive Oil Temp for factory recommended 0w-20 persists

[stilesg57]

Originally Posted by ZDan

That doesn't mean it was due to not having an oil cooler (though many jump to that conclusion). '13s definitely had the most issues. Failures of used 100k mile '13s with unknown histories being driven by the kinds of people who (apparently) go out and "drive hard with friends"? I'd hardly call that conclusive evidence that an oil cooler will solve any and all problems...

Totally get that, and I bet you’re right that most of those kinds of failures probably aren’t directly attributable to high oil temps.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by stilesg57

...or a couple old Savagegeese vids sure show a lot of temp issues with the 1st gen car

Please feel free to ignore anything that one Savagegoose fellow says. He's one of those who will speak as if he is an absolute authority, but it's coming right out of his arse... He gets things so wrong, so often, I don't take him seriously at all.

I researched this long and hard back when I bought my car, and came across his video where he goes on and on about how you MUST run a cooler, "you may hate me, but there's no way around this" or words to that effect, but never once says *why*.

"Temp issues with the 1st gen" are IMO ~85% in the minds of those who see what they think are "big" numbers. The other ~15% being that 0w20 oil maybe isn't appropriate for ~272F oil temperatures at the track... So run known-good 30 (or 40) weight synthetic.

[Frost]

Originally Posted by stilesg57

But that’s still both: it reduces time spent at both the hot and cold extremes and keeps the operating temp nearer the engineered target/range for a longer period of time. It’s still a benefit to cooling — it’s not misnamed that badly.

Isn’t the takeaway here that the new one, ceteris paribus (and I recognize that’s a BIG assumption), should have fewer oil temp issues than the previous gen? I’m acknowledging issues like oil starvation popped plenty of FA20 motors too, but 15 minutes in the FI forum or a couple old Savagegeese vids sure show a lot of temp issues with the 1st gen car and this seems like a design aimed at least partially towards mitigating that.

I agree that my coolant-to-oil sandwich does help cooling to some degree hence the "meh". At the very least it offers a large volume media (coolant) and a larger surface area (radiator) to dump heat but the coolant is also experience heat gains from the engine as well so it's not going to be (usually) as effective as a dedicated air-to-oil cooler.

I am agreeing with you that the new one should have slightly better cooling - I was more directing the comments to everyone thinking that this new one "failed" at addressing the oil temps. That is categorically incorrect - we got a coolant-to-oil heat exchange going. That will shave off the peaks at the very least.

[nextcar]

Originally Posted by ZDan

Its primary function is likely the same as it is on the Forester: to get the oil up to temp quicker.

Disclaimers:

1) I (or AFAIK no one else on this forum) am not a Subaru engine designer.

2) Correlation does not imply causation.

Facts:

1) Subaru has an oil-coolant heat exchanger in its parts bin that has been used on multiple production cars from the factory.

2) Turbo charged engines are known to produce more heat than NA engines.

3) There is a correlation between Subaru's use of the oil - coolant heat exchanger and the presence of a factory installed turbo charger.

I, for one, draw the conclusion that it is primarily for cooling the oil, and the secondary benefit is heating the oil. The overall effect is more stable oil temperatures.

I am probably biased; I installed the Forrester unit on my FRS for occasional track use as "cheap insurance". Necessary? Probably not. But it fits my philosophy of modest, inexpensive modifications that make me more confident in my car's performance on the track without significantly reducing its utility as a daily driver.

[OwlDance]

This thread has devolved to ludicrous semantics lol (and with regard to the oil cooling - you can OVERCOOL your oil but you can also underhydrate for marathons - your counterpoint the equivalent of googling the opposite and slapping the first link to me as if it proves something. It doesn't). Ranting and raving about how it's not needed does no one favors and trying to convince others is dangerous for the longevity of the platform, especially now that the first gen is out of production.
Oil temperature is correlated to oil delivery and pressure. They cannot be considered mutually exclusive when accounting for engine protection.

Running heavier weight oil doesn't stop the empirical pressure readings (google it and the dozens of threads here that have hard data) where despite using heavier oil, pressures still drop off like a fucking rock past 230F, not to mention that the majority of oils are (for simplicity's sake, bringing tribology into this would be a can of worms no one wants) rated up to 100c and then everything after that is hard to get a gauge on.

Run an oil cooler unless you want to gamble with your car, but don't tell people it's not necessary because it's not going to hurt someone to put an oil cooler on a car versus running without one. It's better on the engine than merely swapping to heavier and heavier weights which retains heat even better which will result in subsequently higher temperatures, lower pressures, putting the oil even more out of its subsequently designed operating temperatures. This really isn't fucking rocket science. I'll take the word of people who have put actual money into producing safe to operate vehicles than one person's ranting anecdotes.

Saying "it's not needed" when we have many, many other sources that are a lot more professional saying otherwise is really dumb. And on that note, I wonder why many performance and race vehicles near ubiquitously use oil coolers despite "oil" being ""designed"" for 300f temps. The forester oil cooler is a welcome addition to the stock vehicle and is something that should have been part of the 1st gen to begin with. It won't protect from track conditions but it'll let you rip more than one redline before spiking oil temperatures severely.

[s30series]

Originally Posted by OwlDance

This thread has devolved to ludicrous semantics lol (and with regard to the oil cooling - you can OVERCOOL your oil but you can also underhydrate for marathons - your counterpoint the equivalent of googling the opposite and slapping the first link to me as if it proves something. It doesn't). Ranting and raving about how it's not needed does no one favors and trying to convince others is dangerous for the longevity of the platform, especially now that the first gen is out of production.
Oil temperature is correlated to oil delivery and pressure. They cannot be considered mutually exclusive when accounting for engine protection.

Running heavier weight oil doesn't stop the empirical pressure readings (google it and the dozens of threads here that have hard data) where despite using heavier oil, pressures still drop off like a fucking rock past 230F, not to mention that the majority of oils are (for simplicity's sake, bringing tribology into this would be a can of worms no one wants) rated up to 100c and then everything after that is hard to get a gauge on.

Run an oil cooler unless you want to gamble with your car, but don't tell people it's not necessary because it's not going to hurt someone to put an oil cooler on a car versus running without one. It's better on the engine than merely swapping to heavier and heavier weights which retains heat even better which will result in subsequently higher temperatures, lower pressures, putting the oil even more out of its subsequently designed operating temperatures. This really isn't fucking rocket science. I'll take the word of people who have put actual money into producing safe to operate vehicles than one person's ranting anecdotes.

Saying "it's not needed" when we have many, many other sources that are a lot more professional saying otherwise is really dumb. And on that note, I wonder why many performance and race vehicles near ubiquitously use oil coolers despite "oil" being ""designed"" for 300f temps. The forester oil cooler is a welcome addition to the stock vehicle and is something that should have been part of the 1st gen to begin with. It won't protect from track conditions but it'll let you rip more than one redline before spiking oil temperatures severely.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

[Frost]

Originally Posted by nextcar

Disclaimers:

1) I (or AFAIK no one else on this forum) am not a Subaru engine designer.

2) Correlation does not imply causation.

Facts:

1) Subaru has an oil-coolant heat exchanger in its parts bin that has been used on multiple production cars from the factory.

2) Turbo charged engines are known to produce more heat than NA engines.

3) There is a correlation between Subaru's use of the oil - coolant heat exchanger and the presence of a factory installed turbo charger.

I, for one, draw the conclusion that it is primarily for cooling the oil, and the secondary benefit is heating the oil. The overall effect is more stable oil temperatures.

I am probably biased; I installed the Forrester unit on my FRS for occasional track use as "cheap insurance". Necessary? Probably not. But it fits my philosophy of modest, inexpensive modifications that make me more confident in my car's performance on the track without significantly reducing its utility as a daily driver.

Hry, a logical response. I like this. ANOTHER!

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by OwlDance

This thread has devolved to ludicrous semantics lol (and with regard to the oil cooling - you can OVERCOOL your oil but you can also underhydrate for marathons - your counterpoint the equivalent of googling the opposite and slapping the first link to me as if it proves something. It doesn't).

Of course it doesn't *prove* anything, it wasn't me that brought the analogy up! Of course one should stay hydrated, but based on what happens in the real world, you actually are more likely to help someone by suggesting that they don't OVER hydrate rather than telling them to "drink a lot of water". FWIW I didn't just google this, I researched hydration vs. distance running events before running a 10k years ago (10k is a *long* way to run for me...).

Proves nothing BUT is a good *analogy* in that yeah, you don't want oil to get too hot but IMO you're not doing noobs any favors by telling them they *MUST* get an oil cooler as I would bet they are more likely to have negative consequences from that than running appropriate oil at 272F.

Oil temperature is correlated to oil delivery and pressure. They cannot be considered mutually exclusive when accounting for engine protection.

I'll say it yet again, you should consider operating temps when selecting oil viscosity.

But even aside from that, we do have at least some evidence that running the same oil with and without an oil cooler results in the *same oil pressure*. I.e. the pressure drop due to the oil cooler is about what it is due to 275F oil being hotter than 250F oil:
https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=91820

Running heavier weight oil doesn't stop the empirical pressure readings (google it and the dozens of threads here that have hard data) where despite using heavier oil, pressures still drop off like a fucking rock past 230F, not to mention that the majority of oils are (for simplicity's sake, bringing tribology into this would be a can of worms no one wants) rated up to 100c and then everything after that is hard to get a gauge on.

You're going to have to link me to sources for this info. Rest assured I've searched and re-searched on this topic dozens of times and have not run across that. Not being a smartass at all I would legit appreciate it if you could point me to sources.

Run an oil cooler unless you want to gamble with your car,

Obviously I'm gambling with my car all the time taking it to the track and wringing it by its neck up to and beyond its and my capabilities...

but don't tell people it's not necessary because it's not going to hurt someone to put an oil cooler on a car versus running without one. It's better on the engine than merely swapping to heavier and heavier weights

I run 30weight, so "heavier and heavier"? I personally wouldn't run more than 40-weight because daily-driver, but plenty of people do and I seriously doubt 15w50 in warmer months would be that big a deal...

which retains heat even better which will result in subsequently higher temperatures, lower pressures, putting the oil even more out of its subsequently designed operating temperatures.

I have never seen any reasonable source suggest that 275F is any problem at all for any decent off-the-shelf synthetic oil.

This really isn't fucking rocket science. I'll take the word of people who have put actual money into producing safe to operate vehicles than one person's ranting anecdotes.

If you think *any* "evidence" you've seen on this or just about any forum is anything more than *anecdotal*, guess what...

Saying "it's not needed" when we have many, many other sources that are a lot more professional saying otherwise is really dumb.

Repeating a thing ad infinitum doesn't make it true, no matter how well-meaning people think they are being by repeating it.

And on that note, I wonder why many performance and race vehicles near ubiquitously use oil coolers despite "oil" being ""designed"" for 300f temps.

Many performance and race vehicles are making a TON more horsepower. I would bet that most run oil temps higher than 275F for 2-hour "sprints"...

The forester oil cooler is a welcome addition to the stock vehicle and is something that should have been part of the 1st gen to begin with. It won't protect from track conditions but it'll let you rip more than one redline before spiking oil temperatures severely.

What do you consider "spiking oil temperatures severely"?

I've never seen oil temps "spike" driving my car at the track fwiw...

[Kona61]

Originally Posted by ZDan

Of course it doesn't *prove* anything, it wasn't me that brought the analogy up! Of course one should stay hydrated, but based on what happens in the real world, you actually are more likely to help someone by suggesting that they don't OVER hydrate rather than telling them to "drink a lot of water". FWIW I didn't just google this, I researched hydration vs. distance running events before running a 10k years ago (10k is a *long* way to run for


SNIP...

Although I do agree that the oil can hit 275 and be “okay” I’d probably assume most owners of a new $30k car would prefer keeping oil temps much closer to 220-240 range.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by Kona61

Although I do agree that the oil can hit 275 and be “okay” I’d probably assume most owners of a new $30k car would prefer keeping oil temps much closer to 220-240 range.

What most owners think is not relevant. Most owners know jack shite about what safe oil or coolant temperatures are. The idea that operational oil and coolant temps should be driven by what owners (who have no idea) expect or "prefer" is absurd...

[DarkPira7e]

Originally Posted by ZDan

I researched this long and hard back when I bought my car, and came across his video where he goes on and on about how you MUST run a cooler, "you may hate me, but there's no way around this" or words to that effect, but never once says *why*.

Ok, this is just nonsense. And the point you consistently neglect to mention is that high oil temperature leads to low oil pressure.
The real mystery is at what pressure will your bearings get scorched from lack of the proper hydrodynamic wedge that oil provides.
The answer is that it is not a constant, you're chasing a moving target. That is why the OEM gives a guideline goal for oil pressure.

@Dezoris may come off as a prick, but guess what? He has put in a lot of work to push knowledge specific to this platform forward, he deserves to be proud and speak with authority. I may not agree with everything he (or anyone) says, but to completely miss the "why" of his study is nuts. Don't be so hard headed that you can't accept that "recommending" an oil cooler comes from a place of care and concern, rather than a self-righteous conspiracy theorist rhetoric.

I'm also in the camp of "Don't get an oil cooler until you can provide data to support it". But the data between oil TEMPERATURE and PRESSURE is well known. If you lose your hydrodynamic wedge on any metal/metal, it's causing potentially significant wear. That happens with oil pressure being too low at a given load/rpm.

[OwlDance]

I'm not going to address every point here because we can devolve to endless minutia but at this point there's nothing more I can say without rinsing and repeating. You can ignore everything everyone's provided reasonable and sound evidence - and I guarantee that the collection of people's anecdotes are far more reliable than anything you're spouting when your anecdotes don't hold a shred of empricism compared to anything else, and seem more like chasing clout than wanting to share information for the sake of the community.

This thread is derailed to shit and everyone's pointed out more or less everything within arm's reach of the platform citing how oil cooling is more or less necessary from aftermarket and otherwise and that running without it is nothing more than a gamble. (Which I've said at least twice in my posts by now, so there)

While we're talking about track day oil temperatures the FA24 uses straight connecting rods instead of the offset ones of the FA20, the japanese site I saw cited the reason for this being lubrication problems. Now I don't know if they changed the oil galleys from the FA20 but we might certainly see less issues with bearing failures with a symmetrical rod design, where oil cooling may be less necessary to maintain adequate lubrication from the system. That's what I'm most interested in seeing as that's sort of the biggest difference in the engine off the top of my head (barring displacement), but in my research I haven't really found much reasoning behind using offset connecting rods to begin with.

I'm not really worried about the car's longevity on track however, simply because this platform already has vested banks of knowledge regarding how to protect it that I'm certain a lot of it will carry over. 600$ for an oil cooler isn't exactly a bad investment to guarantee more or less safe power production near indefinitely, aside other standard track consumables. Savagegeese might overblow some things but I think that his original videos were well warranted and highlighted clear issues clearly (with pressure and temp readings and UOAs which are fairly empirical.) Just my 2c, I think the next gen engine will be plenty robust and it won't be anything to worry about with only one small modification.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by DarkPira7e

Ok, this is just nonsense. And the point you consistently neglect to mention is that high oil temperature leads to low oil pressure.

I've always mentioned that higher temps mean you should run higher viscosity. But if oil pressure is the metric you are fixating on, tell me what you think about this:
https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=91820

It looks to me like the oil pressure drop from the cooler is the same as the oil pressure drop from the no-cooler setup running hotter.

The real mystery is at what pressure will your bearings get scorched from lack of the proper hydrodynamic wedge that oil provides.
The answer is that it is not a constant, you're chasing a moving target. That is why the OEM gives a guideline goal for oil pressure.

OEM specs at nominal oil temps do not represent an oil pressure *requirement*. As long as the bearings are consistently fed with oil, hydrodynamic wedge is in effect. That said, as already shown oil pressure at 275F with no oil cooler isn't any lower than oil pressure at 250F with an oil cooler.

@Dezoris may come off as a prick, but guess what? He has put in a lot of work to push knowledge specific to this platform forward, he deserves to be proud and speak with authority. I may not agree with everything he (or anyone) says, but to completely miss the "why" of his study is nuts. Don't be so hard headed that you can't accept that "recommending" an oil cooler comes from a place of care and concern, rather than a self-righteous conspiracy theorist rhetoric.

If "Dezoris" is that one Savagegoose guy, he's wrong on need for an oil cooler, wrong on what's required to make these cars handle, wrong on whether a '17+ (or even a '13-'16) "wants to rev" as much as an ND2 Miata.

I'm also in the camp of "Don't get an oil cooler until you can provide data to support it". But the data between oil TEMPERATURE and PRESSURE is well known. If you lose your hydrodynamic wedge on any metal/metal, it's causing potentially significant wear. That happens with oil pressure being too low at a given load/rpm.

See above regarding oil pressure vs. temp with and without an oil cooler...

[DarkPira7e]

Originally Posted by ZDan

I've always mentioned that higher temps mean you should run higher viscosity. But if oil pressure is the metric you are fixating on, tell..

See above regarding oil pressure vs. temp with and without an oil cooler...

There's definitely a need to run a higher viscosity oil, you're right. Interesting that Gspeed recognized this, posted the data showing that the oil cooler had a pressure drop, and didn't provide further testing with a higher weight oil. In the same thread, Element Tuning even says that you should do whatever is necessary to reduce oil pressure loss.

Why doesn't Gspeed state what oil cooler they were using? Where it was mounted? What orientation the cooler is in? All of that data is critical and I'm not seeing it.

You are entitled to your opinion about him (savagegeese, who is indeed @Dezoris ) and his own opinions