follow ft86club on our blog, twitter or facebook.
FT86CLUB
Ft86Club
Delicious Tuning
Register Garage Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   Toyota GR86, 86, FR-S and Subaru BRZ Forum - FT86CLUB > Technical Topics > Forced Induction

Forced Induction Turbo, Supercharger, Methanol, Nitrous


User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 03-06-2019, 09:33 PM   #15
projek_01
Senior Member
 
projek_01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Drives: 1996 ST204, Series 10 FR-S
Location: Calgary, Alberta
Posts: 233
Thanks: 85
Thanked 185 Times in 78 Posts
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
I made some new progress today. First, I greased the crap out of the rollers. I wanted to minimize the force I would need to press them out.


I then heated the ring as much as I could to expand it (notice I have two heat sources going at once). Then it was time to press the rollers out.


Two things to notice here.
1. The surface finish on the rollers are terrible. They should be smooth to reduce wear on the sunshaft.
2. My number 2 roller has more wear from the sunshaft collar compared to the rest.


The number 2 roller was also sitting in the recess which has some wear in the anodized coating. This one is a head scratchier.... My gut feeling is that this wear is caused by belt tension putting the most axial/thrust load on the top bearing. If not, it might be from a failed bearing causing the entire bearing to lock up sometimes and spin both inner + outer race. I will need to check this #2 roller and sunshaft very closely for any flat spots.


I'm not expert in this stuff. Maybe some mechanical engineers could chime in.

Update:
Writing and talking to myself really gets the thoughts going. Looking at how the belt is tensioned, it makes perfect sense why roller #2 is more worn. Load from the belt pushes roller number two towards the front and into where the wear in the anodization is seen.

__________________

Last edited by projek_01; 04-23-2019 at 02:31 PM.
projek_01 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to projek_01 For This Useful Post:
CSG Mike (03-07-2019), RToyo86 (03-26-2019), wparsons (05-03-2019)
Old 03-06-2019, 09:39 PM   #16
projek_01
Senior Member
 
projek_01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Drives: 1996 ST204, Series 10 FR-S
Location: Calgary, Alberta
Posts: 233
Thanks: 85
Thanked 185 Times in 78 Posts
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by KevlarZN6 View Post
I recently bought a used JRSC for the hardware, previous owner ended up also giving me the Rotrex unit(Owner said it seized). I took it apart in attempt to rebuild it, everything was well inside, except the sun shaft. Found a website that claims they sell "New" sun shafts. As projek_01 said, Rotrex won't sell you any replacement parts or recommend to attempt to rebuilding them. Due to the tight tolerance (Friction driven unit) and the "Incorrect disassembly/assembly procedures. I did so much web search about rebuilding these units. I only came across one guy with a M3 that rebuilt his and has been running it for a year now. All the bearings and seals are good in mine, so I'll be ordering the shaft within the next weeks.
https://www.superchargerrebuild.com/rotrex-rebuild/ Not sure where they source the "New" parts but as long as I get over a year out of it, I'll be happy.
http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=598558 This is the link to the guy that rebuilt it, there is also a link to a photo album of a guy from Heath Racing that rebuilds these for Race teams.
Haha I know about all of these websites and online aliases. I have also been searching about this topic for the last few months.

As for the new rebuild parts, they must be made locally. With the right lathe and knowledge, the parts (sunshaft and rollers) honestly don't seem very hard to reproduce. I am very tempted to sketch up the sunshaft in CAD and see how much it would cost to get a stronger one made. That would also involve enlarging the bore on the compressor which i'm unsure about. A blonde one off centre when enlarging the bore and it's going to wobble itself into crumbs.

Also, I would personally upgrade those three internal fasteners to 10.9 strength and also use a dab of locktite. Mine weren't very tight when I took mine apart.
__________________
projek_01 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2019, 03:35 PM   #17
ShawnP19
Senior Member
 
ShawnP19's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Drives: 2016 Series.HyperBlue BRZ
Location: Augusta, GA
Posts: 182
Thanks: 33
Thanked 50 Times in 41 Posts
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Garage
Geez, where were you guys early February when I was searching high and low for parts/rebuilders. Thanks for satisfying my curiosity on what's inside a rotrex (real life not CAD)
ShawnP19 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2019, 12:14 PM   #18
projek_01
Senior Member
 
projek_01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Drives: 1996 ST204, Series 10 FR-S
Location: Calgary, Alberta
Posts: 233
Thanks: 85
Thanked 185 Times in 78 Posts
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
I have concluded that the 6203 and 6003 bearing on my input side were likely causing my issues. There was some noticeable roughness just from spinning them in my hand.

Rotrex chose to use normal clearance instead of C3 clearance which are normally seen on automotive stuff. I looked at alternators, air conditioning pumps and they are all spec'ed with C3 bearings.

Also, the output oil seal is a random size that no one makes. It is likely that I will have to get one custom made... very very annoying.
__________________
projek_01 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to projek_01 For This Useful Post:
CSG Mike (03-26-2019), wparsons (05-03-2019)
Old 03-26-2019, 12:43 PM   #19
amcp1
Member
 
Join Date: May 2017
Drives: frs
Location: mo
Posts: 77
Thanks: 2
Thanked 38 Times in 25 Posts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Please continue posting more info. This is good stuff!
amcp1 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to amcp1 For This Useful Post:
CSG Mike (03-26-2019), projek_01 (03-27-2019), wparsons (05-03-2019)
Old 03-26-2019, 01:22 PM   #20
tobin
Senior Member
 
tobin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Drives: '13 BRZ, '06 Outback
Location: New England
Posts: 449
Thanks: 268
Thanked 303 Times in 142 Posts
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Those are the same type of bearings used in your standard bicycle crank.
tobin is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to tobin For This Useful Post:
projek_01 (03-27-2019)
Old 03-26-2019, 01:51 PM   #21
toast
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Drives: 14 BSP Edelbrock BRZ
Location: Lon Gisland
Posts: 780
Thanks: 108
Thanked 423 Times in 242 Posts
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by projek_01 View Post

The number 2 roller was also sitting in the recess which has some wear in the anodized coating. This one is a head scratchier.... My gut feeling is that this wear is caused by belt tension putting the most axial load on the top bearing. If not, it might be from a failed bearing causing the entire bearing to lock up sometimes and spin both inner + outer race. I will need to check this #2 roller and sunshaft very closely for any flat spots.


I'm not expert in this stuff. Maybe some mechanical engineers could chime in.

Update:
Writing and talking to myself really gets the thoughts going. Looking at how the belt is tensioned, it makes perfect sense why roller #2 is more worn. Load from the belt pushes roller number two towards the front and into where the wear in the anodization is seen.

Can you reclock the supercharger 180 degrees so that the upward force is spread over 2 of the bearings instead of a single one?
toast is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2019, 07:01 PM   #22
projek_01
Senior Member
 
projek_01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Drives: 1996 ST204, Series 10 FR-S
Location: Calgary, Alberta
Posts: 233
Thanks: 85
Thanked 185 Times in 78 Posts
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Unfortunately, you cannot. The oiling system is designed to work with the unit clocked in that direction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by toast View Post
Can you reclock the supercharger 180 degrees so that the upward force is spread over 2 of the bearings instead of a single one?
__________________
projek_01 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2019, 10:58 AM   #23
projek_01
Senior Member
 
projek_01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Drives: 1996 ST204, Series 10 FR-S
Location: Calgary, Alberta
Posts: 233
Thanks: 85
Thanked 185 Times in 78 Posts
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Some small updates today. Custom output shaft oil seal is on it's way. Made these 3D printed parts to hold the shaft in a vise so I can press the compressor back on. Going to pay some money to get the balance checked at a specialty turbo shop ($$$). Just for a piece of mind and good sleep at night.



__________________
projek_01 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to projek_01 For This Useful Post:
Code Monkey (04-09-2019), Tristor (04-23-2019)
Old 04-09-2019, 09:52 PM   #24
projek_01
Senior Member
 
projek_01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Drives: 1996 ST204, Series 10 FR-S
Location: Calgary, Alberta
Posts: 233
Thanks: 85
Thanked 185 Times in 78 Posts
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
I received a call last week from the turbo shop saying that the shaft broke when they were tightening the nut on the compressor wheel before balancing.

Normally, I'd be outraged and demand them to replace it at their cost. However, we all know that these shafts are underbuilt and snap all of the time.

I got in touch with Mr. Jack Heath that built his own 600 whp Frankenstein C30-94 for his Honda S2000. He gave me some recommendations and his own sketch for an improved sun-shaft. This is going to cost me about $450CAD for materials, machining and heat-treating. This really hurts the pocket book but if all goes well, this should be a very reliable Rotrex for about $800 all said and done.

Jack's version of the sun-shaft is made out of 440C stainless steel (Rockwell harness of 20) and will reach a hardness of about 60 after heat treatment. The shaft where the compressor is mounted on is 8mm wide compared to 7mm and a smoother radius was added to where it meets the oil seal area to improve strength. Therefore, my compressor will have to be bored to 8mm before balancing.


This is the shaft roughed out before hardening and final grind to size.

If anyone want's the sketch, I can ask Jack for permission to forward it to you.
__________________

Last edited by projek_01; 04-22-2019 at 08:36 PM.
projek_01 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to projek_01 For This Useful Post:
ChiTownFrs (04-10-2019), Code Monkey (04-09-2019), eherschend (04-10-2019), sroby (04-23-2019), Tristor (04-23-2019)
Old 04-22-2019, 08:34 PM   #25
projek_01
Senior Member
 
projek_01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Drives: 1996 ST204, Series 10 FR-S
Location: Calgary, Alberta
Posts: 233
Thanks: 85
Thanked 185 Times in 78 Posts
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
The shaft is finally done and according to my Mitutoyo digital caliper, it is the correct size.


top: new bottom: POS

Reassembly will happen in the coming week or so!
__________________
projek_01 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to projek_01 For This Useful Post:
Code Monkey (04-23-2019), CSG Mike (04-23-2019), Tristor (04-23-2019), Ultramaroon (04-22-2019), wparsons (05-03-2019)
Old 04-23-2019, 11:37 AM   #26
Tristor
Senior Member
 
Tristor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Drives: 2017 Subaru BRZ Limited
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 616
Thanks: 3,050
Thanked 553 Times in 292 Posts
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Garage
This thread has some fantastic information, but it's also making me question my earlier decision in my build plan to eventually go FI with a Rotrex. Unfortunately, machining and fabrication are not my strong suits, therefore the level of work you've put into repairing and improving the unit is something that'd be out of reach for me to do myself. I'd love to see the community though make available parts, such as higher quality rollers/bearings, and improved/oversized sun shafts so it's a simple matter to get a local machine shop to bore out the housing and then the rest is mostly shop work I could do.


One of my primary motivations for considering a Rotrex based SC kit was for reliability, but now I'm thinking perhaps going the turbo route would be better with the appropriate tuning.


Either way though, thanks for the wealth of information here.
Tristor is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Tristor For This Useful Post:
sroby (04-23-2019)
Old 04-23-2019, 01:37 PM   #27
projek_01
Senior Member
 
projek_01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Drives: 1996 ST204, Series 10 FR-S
Location: Calgary, Alberta
Posts: 233
Thanks: 85
Thanked 185 Times in 78 Posts
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Interesting load of BS on their website.... There is definitely metal-metal contact in the traction drive system. It is basically ALL reliant on metal-metal contact.

@Tristor
I truely hope that Rotrex has since made improvements to their design. If so, the unit can be indeed very reliable and make some decent power. Also keep in mind that people with broken units will post things online while happy owners usually don't. The actual failure percentage is like to be very skewed online.

However, the fact that they left us early adopters stranded by not warrantying units/making people buy new units for 50% of MSRP left a sour taste in my mouth. I wish that I went with a fullrace turbo kit from the beginning though.

Plus, why can't they re-use components and rebuild the units? Replace the rolling elements and bearings but re-use the housing and compressor wheels.
__________________

Last edited by projek_01; 04-23-2019 at 02:28 PM.
projek_01 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2019, 02:32 PM   #28
CSG Mike
 
CSG Mike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Drives: S2000 CR
Location: Orange County
Posts: 13,330
Thanks: 8,323
Thanked 12,844 Times in 6,193 Posts
Mentioned: 901 Post(s)
Tagged: 13 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by projek_01 View Post
Interesting load of BS on their website.... There is definitely metal-metal contact in the traction drive system. It is basically ALL reliant on metal-metal contact.

@Tristor
I truely hope that Rotrex has since made improvements to their design. If so, the unit can be indeed very reliable and make some decent power. Also keep in mind that people with broken units will post things online while happy owners usually don't. The actual failure percentage is like to be very skewed online.

However, the fact that they left us early adopters stranded by not warrantying units/making people buy new units for 50% of MSRP left a sour taste in my mouth. I wish that I went with a fullrace turbo kit from the beginning though.

Plus, why can't they re-use components and rebuild the units? Replace the rolling elements and bearings but re-use the housing and compressor wheels.
I've never seen a Rotrex warranty claim denied unless the lines were hooked up backwards (aka warranty fraud attempt) with the JacksoN Racing kit.

I've seen many Rotrex warranty claims denied with the Kraftwerks kit.

The Rotrex is not designed to be used with a cogged belt.
CSG Mike is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to CSG Mike For This Useful Post:
wparsons (05-03-2019)
 
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Shopping cars today, test drove an fr-s..my thoughts and I'd like more opinions plz. maybebrz BRZ First-Gen (2012+) -- General Topics 55 11-04-2015 10:49 AM
Thoughts on Kraftwerks C-Type Rotrex Supercharger Piper606 Scion FR-S / Toyota 86 GT86 General Forum 5 07-31-2015 10:59 AM
FS:CA Brand new never opened KW INOX V3 for sale stiboost08 Brakes, Suspension, Chassis 6 07-31-2014 02:18 PM
FS/FT: Apple tv! Brand new never opened! Duthebarber Miscellaneous 0 10-07-2013 03:34 PM
18x8 Drag DR 38 +35 Never opened Tdooley Wheels and Tires 2 02-10-2013 12:42 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:46 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging v3.3.0 (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

Garage vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.