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Old 09-23-2021, 06:26 PM   #1079
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Some statistics, nationwide, that closely mirror the statistics for our county I posted a few days ago. Just to reiterate, vaccinated or not, it is extremely rare for Covid to be a death sentence, and almost never for otherwise healthy people.
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Old 09-23-2021, 06:40 PM   #1080
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Lots of people live through chemotherapy too.
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Old 09-23-2021, 06:47 PM   #1081
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MuseChaser View Post
Some statistics, nationwide, that closely mirror the statistics for our county I posted a few days ago. Just to reiterate, vaccinated or not, it is extremely rare for Covid to be a death sentence, and almost never for otherwise healthy people.
What, exactly, is your point?
It is somewhat rare for it to be a death sentence, but not extremely rare. It is still 11 times MORE rare if you are vaccinated.
Note that the death rate is also lower than if we'd just gone about business as usual, which is how everything else on that list happens.
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Old 09-23-2021, 07:03 PM   #1082
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Again, I'm completely dumbfounded. I find it impossible to believe that this argument is made in good faith.

IT'S A BRAND NEW CATEGORY JFC
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Old 09-23-2021, 07:04 PM   #1083
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"Moderna CEO says COVID-19 pandemic could be over in a year
Nearly 55% of the U.S. population has been fully vaccinated"

https://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/...over-in-a-year
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Old 09-23-2021, 07:35 PM   #1084
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Anyone want to post the stats for today for their area?
OK, I'll start. Ontario Sept 23, 2021

677 new infections ( has dropped over 7 days from a peak of more than 950)

148 were fully vaccinated.

7 deaths reported. If Covid19 wasn't circulating, 7 people wouldn't have died today.

I'm still not sure MuseChaser why you commented that the odds of death are low. Are you referring specifically for yourself? Vaccinated, following protocols that would probably be true.

This should serve as NO assurance for those who are not fully vaccinated and not following protocols.
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Old 09-23-2021, 07:49 PM   #1085
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What, exactly, is your point?
It is somewhat rare for it to be a death sentence, but not extremely rare. It is still 11 times MORE rare if you are vaccinated.
Note that the death rate is also lower than if we'd just gone about business as usual, which is how everything else on that list happens.
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Again, I'm completely dumbfounded. I find it impossible to believe that this argument is made in good faith.

IT'S A BRAND NEW CATEGORY JFC
The point of the statistics is to show that the frequently made assertion, or at least implication, that the choice is either to get vaccinated or die from Covid, is a false equivalency at best.

As far as making an "argument," that's not my intention. Not once have I ever suggested that we don't take Covid seriously or anything even remotely close that to that. I've stated unequivocally that getting the vaccine is a smart choice for most people, and that my wife and I have been vaccinated. I am not arguing.

At the end of 2020, for the year the statistics I posted, there were 254,249,919 confirmed cases...

https://covidtracking.com/data/national

..and since a large number of cases are asymptomatic or go unreported, it's safe to deduce that there were more cases of infection than that. Ignoring that and using the 254, 249,919 number, that would indicate that in 2020 if you contracted Covid you had a 0.136% chance (1.36 in a thousand) of dying from it. Far less if you were other wise healthy, and a great deal more likely to die if you were elderly and/or had other health problems.

That is NOT good, something to be ignored, insignificant, or any thing else along those lines. It is something to be considered and ameliorated as best we can. I've never said anything other than that. All I'm trying to do, as best I can, is to try and keep things in perspective.

<personal back story snipped because it didn't do any good so no point>


I guess all I'm saying is that I can't look at an approximately 1 in a 1000 risk (at worst) and use that as a reason to stop living or to live with even a remote amount of fear. I look at it, think, "what can I do to minimize it?" and "will my actions affect or harm anyone around me?" then act, live, and be grateful for the life I have and the people around me.

JC IS a source of strength for me, and the "F" is totally unnecessary. Science is also a strong interest of mine, and they are not mutually exclusive by any stretch of the imagination. "Why" and "How" have always been my favorite questions, and I admit to being much more of an analyst than a feeler. Perhaps some of that is due to being faced with so much as a child that thinking got me through some things that were a bit too much to feel.

No arguments intended, no desire to change anyone's mind, no faults found in others if they don't share my views. All I'm trying to do is interject some hope and light into discordant waters.
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Old 09-23-2021, 08:21 PM   #1086
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OK MuseChaser, you have had to deal with life risking procedures in the past years so in your mind you consider Covid19 a relatively low risk.

Maybe so, except you know that you need to be careful and protect yourself and it isn't necessarily low risk to you. Always keep that in mind, not being fearful, but smart.
There is no argument a virus that is responsible for killing over 700,000 people in the US most certainly has caused a huge number of excess deaths, even if many of the victims already had life threatening illnesses.
The threat appears to be diminishing over time but the door is still open for a wicked mutation as long as this virus lingers all over the place.
The good news is virus mutations usually tend to be less pathological over time.
In any religion being a good human being comes first.
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Old 09-23-2021, 08:55 PM   #1087
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Originally Posted by MuseChaser View Post
The point of the statistics is to show that the frequently made assertion, or at least implication, that the choice is either to get vaccinated or die from Covid, is a false equivalency at best.

As far as making an "argument," that's not my intention. Not once have I ever suggested that we don't take Covid seriously or anything even remotely close that to that. I've stated unequivocally that getting the vaccine is a smart choice for most people, and that my wife and I have been vaccinated. I am not arguing.

At the end of 2020, for the year the statistics I posted, there were 254,249,919 confirmed cases...

https://covidtracking.com/data/national

..and since a large number of cases are asymptomatic or go unreported, it's safe to deduce that there were more cases of infection than that. Ignoring that and using the 254, 249,919 number, that would indicate that in 2020 if you contracted Covid you had a 0.136% chance (1.36 in a thousand) of dying from it. Far less if you were other wise healthy, and a great deal more likely to die if you were elderly and/or had other health problems.

That is NOT good, something to be ignored, insignificant, or any thing else along those lines. It is something to be considered and ameliorated as best we can. I've never said anything other than that. All I'm trying to do, as best I can, is to try and keep things in perspective.

Without going into my life's story too deeply (and I know we all have them, and many will have tougher tales than I), my views are undoubtedly based upon past experiences. I was born with a pretty severe, inoperable (at the time) heart defect. By the time I was 8, a world-class surgeon felt that technology had progressed to the point where the could repair my heart. I had a 50/50 chance of surviving the operation. Obviously, I did, and led a normal, active, athletic, life, doing lots of "adrenaline junkie" things, mitigating risk as much as possible. Rock climbing, motorcycling, martial arts, flying, long-distance running, blah blah blah.

Then, scar tissue from that childhood operation started causing problems for me in my late 30s.. not bad enough to ground me, but a slow deterioration of heart electrical and physical function that required me to go through the FAA's Special Issuance protocols, blood thinners, and I slowly lost the ability to push myself physically through the strenuous activities I loved.

Fast forward... age of 55. Things not going well. Need heart surgery. Another brilliant surgeon. Dual atrial reduction. Tricuspid repair. Dual lead pacemaker. Again, slightly better than 50/50 chance of survival but not much, and nowhere near as good as, say, the "chance" of surviving Covid. My wife and i weighed the options; continue living with slowly reducing capacity while things deteriorate and become even more difficult to fix, or go in now and regain the ability to live fully. We said a prayer (Ok, more than one), went in, and I'm stronger now than I'd been for two decades. That was six years ago.

That's my back story. My mother's back story is a LOT tougher, and she left us when she was 56. My childhood best friend's story is a LOT tougher. Many of your stories, I'm sure, are a LOT tougher.

I guess all I'm saying is that I can't look at an approximately 1 in a 1000 risk (at worst) and use that as a reason to stop living or to live with even a remote amount of fear. I look at it, think, "what can I do to minimize it?" and "will my actions affect or harm anyone around me?" then act, live, and be grateful for the life I have and the people around me.

JC IS a source of strength for me, and the "F" is totally unnecessary. Science is also a strong interest of mine, and they are not mutually exclusive by any stretch of the imagination. "Why" and "How" have always been my favorite questions, and I admit to being much more of an analyst than a feeler. Perhaps some of that is due to being faced with so much as a child that thinking got me through some things that were a bit too much to feel.

No arguments intended, no desire to change anyone's mind, no faults found in others if they don't share my views. All I'm trying to do is interject some hope and light into discordant waters.
NGL, that's a total BS story. Not that it isn't real, but for the fact that, to you it's nothing. But to others it's everything. And it's not just mortality and such. It's tied to economics, mental health, and sociopolitical.
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Old 09-23-2021, 09:14 PM   #1088
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And it's not just mortality and such. It's tied to economics, mental health, and sociopolitical.
That's true. You can trace back all kinds of setbacks from car manufacturers having no inventory due to chip order cancelations to restaurants with huge capital costs going belly up. Unemployment, bankruptcies, closures. Now, labour shortages, anxiety, more unemployment, government debt leading to inflation. This virus messes up many people in many ways.
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Old 09-23-2021, 09:15 PM   #1089
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The point of the statistics is to show that the frequently made assertion, or at least implication, that the choice is either to get vaccinated or die from Covid, is a false equivalency at best.
sorry, I've missed anyone making that assertion that wasn't trying to argue against being vaccinated.
Those arguing for have largely been trying to protect themselves and others from ALL of the various outcomes; a few days off work, permanent flavor and smell changes, any of the many other weird long (how long? don't know yet) side effects, killing a family-member or friend without knowing it, etc...
Or is it that those deaths don't matter, because something else killed more people? maybe we should stop trying to solve ALL the things that kill us early and focus just on the top one? If I run someone over and kill them, will that hold up in court? "oh, but really this is just one death, it was not significant because this other thing kills SO many more people."


Covid kills.
Covid maims - how long term, we don't know...


We have ways to reduce the impact. We should use all of those, just like we do for EVERY OTHER THING ON THAT LIST, to the best of our current knowledge and understanding.
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Old 09-23-2021, 09:17 PM   #1090
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That's true. You can trace back all kinds of setbacks from car manufacturers having no inventory due to chip order cancelations to restaurants with huge capital costs going belly up. Unemployment, bankruptcies, closures. Now, labour shortages, anxiety, more unemployment, government debt leading to inflation. This virus messes up many people in many ways.
Not to pick nits, but that vast majority of those problems, and I agree that they are HUGE problems, are caused by our governments' (yours, mine, and elsewhere) responses to the virus, and not the virus itself.
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Old 09-23-2021, 09:21 PM   #1091
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NGL, that's a total BS story.
Don't know what "NGL" means. Gotta say, it feels real good to have someone respond like that when sharing some pretty serious, difficult life experiences. Thank you.


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Not that it isn't real, but for the fact that, to you it's nothing. But to others it's
everything. And it's not just mortality and such. It's tied to economics, mental health, and sociopolitical.
As I replied to wbradley, those things are indeed real, but are due to responses to the virus, and not the virus.
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Old 09-23-2021, 09:23 PM   #1092
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..We have ways to reduce the impact. We should use all of those, just like we do for EVERY OTHER THING ON THAT LIST, to the best of our current knowledge and understanding..
I agree with that portion of your post.
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