GT4 3S-GTE - Toyota GR86, 86, FR-S and Subaru BRZ Forum & Owners Community

Spartarus · 03-27-2015, 07:26 PM

Ok, so, please dont hang me in the town square for my continuous stream of wildly speculative material, but I have an idea unique to this strange little car of ours.

So, the toyota celica GT4 with its 3s-GTE engine has a 68.5" track. The FRS also happens to have a 68.5" track.

The FRS came with a longitudinal engine and transmission, and all the swaps seem to focus on this fact. The only AWD swap I know of is the RB26DETT that @PrimeMotoring is working on.

Nobody has made any mention of a transverse engine at all, which I understand, because most longitudinal cars will not fit a transverse engine. The little boxer in the FRS is a STAGGERING 31" wide though. The front frame rails are pushed way out there. That got me thinking, maybe it could be done. The front crossmember would be in the way of the rear driveshaft, but it can be cut up a bit, and two of the new engine mounts will have to be welded to the outer frame rails. Once again, no big deal.

Oh, and we lose a gear. the E154F is a 5 speed box.

Why all this nonsense? beacause I want a rally coupe dammit..

The engine and transmission can be had as a package for about $1900. EDIT: I know the cost of completing the swap will be many times more than that, with the fabrication, install, front spindles, tuning, standalone ECU, wiring, etc. Is there an ECU that does CANBUS for an engine this old?

Now, I'm borrowing a photo from vorshlag to make my point.

EDIT: 3sgte and transmission weigh 421 lbs. Stock motor and trans weigh 480 lbs. That pulls 59 lbs off the front end of the car. Not bad.

Dimman · 03-27-2015, 07:42 PM

Go look up Nameless' Gravel Machine Gun if you want a rally GT86.

hmong337 · 03-27-2015, 07:48 PM

Just buy another all-trac gt4. DONE. AWD FRS... Oh man the oxymoron going on here ahaha

mrk1 · 03-27-2015, 08:39 PM

My constructive feedback, height would be my concern. FWD engine/trans combos can be tall and then having to mount in order to have that tail shaft fit over the steering rack could push it all pretty high.

swarb · 03-27-2015, 08:52 PM

I wish we could find all-trac's here. They are very rare. The people who have them for sale usually want too much for them(5k+) or they are on their last leg.

Dimman · 03-27-2015, 09:17 PM

Is this going to your Porsche rear trans axle? *rolls eyes*

Dipstik-sportech · 03-27-2015, 09:40 PM

The 3sgte is a tall engine and its also tilted towards the firewall quite a bit. Anything can be done with enough funding but is it worth it? Probably not, just buy an all-trac.

robr · 03-27-2015, 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spartarus

Is there an ECU that does CANBUS for an engine this old?

ECU Master's EMU.

/shameless plug.

Spartarus · 03-27-2015, 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dimman

Is this going to your Porsche rear trans axle? *rolls eyes*

HAHA

Forgive me for the next few weeks while I'm moving.. I'm deprived of my car and driving a much hated rental

, oh, and I have lots of spare time on my hands. I'm fielding a few different ideas... Yes the transaxle is another, separate and unrelated idea... It's a great time sink for now.

Manji · 03-28-2015, 01:08 AM

Why 3sgte over ej20? It would be a much easier swap.

A jap spec ej20 is a superior motor to the 3sgte.

And I'm a toyota guy, it pains me greatly to make that statement.

Buy a 2 door gc8. They're great cars. And fast. I had one doing 12.8 completely stock, other than replacing the mid pipe. I had a st205 gt4 for years, and compared to the gc8 it felt far heavier, and the quickest 1/4 I ever got it to do was a 13.2; that was full exhaust, clutch, 17psi, stripped interior. Blah blah.

The gc8 had far better ratios for acceleration. The st205 had far longer gearing, which made it feel more sluggish.

cdrazic93 · 03-28-2015, 03:32 AM

if you destroy an all trac celica GT4 I will be so pissed at you.

OmarGC · 03-28-2015, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manji

Why 3sgte over ej20? It would be a much easier swap.

A jap spec ej20 is a superior motor to the 3sgte.

And I'm a toyota guy, it pains me greatly to make that statement.

Buy a 2 door gc8. They're great cars. And fast. I had one doing 12.8 completely stock, other than replacing the mid pipe. I had a st205 gt4 for years, and compared to the gc8 it felt far heavier, and the quickest 1/4 I ever got it to do was a 13.2; that was full exhaust, clutch, 17psi, stripped interior. Blah blah.

The gc8 had far better ratios for acceleration. The st205 had far longer gearing, which made it feel more sluggish.

I'd completely disagree on the engine superiority thing & yes I've owned both.

hmong337 · 03-28-2015, 12:47 PM

Not sure I would say the EJ20 is superior over the 3sgte. If anything, the 3s is slightly better. Less moving parts, easier to service, and still makes great power. The 3s has been pushed into the 1000hp range. Not sure I would ever trust an EJ to do that.

Spartarus · 03-28-2015, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manji

Why 3sgte over ej20? It would be a much easier swap.

A jap spec ej20 is a superior motor to the 3sgte.

Would it though? I didn't think you could mount the engine forward far enough to line up the front axles. Pretty sure that swap had been ruled out... On curiosity, what's the distance on a WRX EJ from the front transaxle centerline to the front of the crank pulley?

On the stock FRS, the axle centerline runs straight through cylinders 3 and 4. Staying with a subaru motor, it'd be better to just forget the engine swap, hook up an FA20 forester transmission and F*** with the front axles... That being said, it looks to me that the engine would have to be moved at least 6 inches forward in the bay.

That being said, you might be on to something. There's enough room in front of the motor for a pretty good-sized turbo, maybe there's enough space to move the motor forward instead.. Front crossmember would still need a bit of modification.

Images: FRS drivetrain, FA20 forester engine / trans

03-27-2015, 07:26 PM	#1
Spartarus ...Just add nauseum Join Date: Jan 2015 Drives: 2003 (AP1) S2000 Location: Miami, FL Posts: 545 Thanks: 310 Thanked 784 Times in 335 Posts Mentioned: 19 Post(s) Tagged: 1 Thread(s)	GT4 3S-GTE Ok, so, please dont hang me in the town square for my continuous stream of wildly speculative material, but I have an idea unique to this strange little car of ours. So, the toyota celica GT4 with its 3s-GTE engine has a 68.5" track. The FRS also happens to have a 68.5" track. The FRS came with a longitudinal engine and transmission, and all the swaps seem to focus on this fact. The only AWD swap I know of is the RB26DETT that @PrimeMotoring is working on. Nobody has made any mention of a transverse engine at all, which I understand, because most longitudinal cars will not fit a transverse engine. The little boxer in the FRS is a STAGGERING 31" wide though. The front frame rails are pushed way out there. That got me thinking, maybe it could be done. The front crossmember would be in the way of the rear driveshaft, but it can be cut up a bit, and two of the new engine mounts will have to be welded to the outer frame rails. Once again, no big deal. Oh, and we lose a gear. the E154F is a 5 speed box. Why all this nonsense? beacause I want a rally coupe dammit.. The engine and transmission can be had as a package for about $1900. EDIT: I know the cost of completing the swap will be many times more than that, with the fabrication, install, front spindles, tuning, standalone ECU, wiring, etc. Is there an ECU that does CANBUS for an engine this old? Now, I'm borrowing a photo from vorshlag to make my point. EDIT: 3sgte and transmission weigh 421 lbs. Stock motor and trans weigh 480 lbs. That pulls 59 lbs off the front end of the car. Not bad. Attached Images Last edited by Spartarus; 03-27-2015 at 07:57 PM.

03-27-2015, 07:48 PM	#3
hmong337 Emperor JDM Join Date: Jun 2013 Drives: '91 MR2 Gen3 3SGTE, '13 FRS Location: Onterrible, Canada Posts: 1,750 Thanks: 3,498 Thanked 909 Times in 495 Posts Mentioned: 20 Post(s) Tagged: 3 Thread(s)	Just buy another all-trac gt4. DONE. AWD FRS... Oh man the oxymoron going on here ahaha __________________

03-27-2015, 08:39 PM	#4
mrk1 Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2013 Drives: Sterling BRZ Ltd Location: New England Posts: 1,702 Thanks: 403 Thanked 1,389 Times in 671 Posts Mentioned: 20 Post(s) Tagged: 2 Thread(s)	My constructive feedback, height would be my concern. FWD engine/trans combos can be tall and then having to mount in order to have that tail shaft fit over the steering rack could push it all pretty high. __________________ The Build Thread GT28RS - eBoost2 - 3.91 Final Drive - Supra LSD

03-27-2015, 09:40 PM	#7
Dipstik-sportech Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Drives: 2013 BRZ satin white pearl sportech Location: Thunder Bay Ontario Canada Posts: 1,813 Thanks: 842 Thanked 911 Times in 576 Posts Mentioned: 43 Post(s) Tagged: 0 Thread(s)	The 3sgte is a tall engine and its also tilted towards the firewall quite a bit. Anything can be done with enough funding but is it worth it? Probably not, just buy an all-trac. __________________ 2013 SWP BRZ sportech. 11.11sec@129.01mph, 511whp on e70. FullBlown base kit, FullBlown built 9.5:1 engine, GTX3076R GEN2 turbo, 1700cc Bosch injectors, FullBlown flex fuel kit, FullBlown radiator and oil cooler, FullBlown custom 3" dual exit exhaust, act xtreme clutch, whiteline diff and subframe inserts, BC Racing coilovers, hotchkiss 18mm rear sway, is300 3.73 differential ... Never finished

03-28-2015, 01:08 AM	#10
Manji Toyotas don't have boxers Join Date: Jun 2014 Drives: GTV86, ISF, TE27 Location: NZ Posts: 212 Thanks: 148 Thanked 511 Times in 146 Posts Mentioned: 15 Post(s) Tagged: 0 Thread(s)	Why 3sgte over ej20? It would be a much easier swap. A jap spec ej20 is a superior motor to the 3sgte. And I'm a toyota guy, it pains me greatly to make that statement. Buy a 2 door gc8. They're great cars. And fast. I had one doing 12.8 completely stock, other than replacing the mid pipe. I had a st205 gt4 for years, and compared to the gc8 it felt far heavier, and the quickest 1/4 I ever got it to do was a 13.2; that was full exhaust, clutch, 17psi, stripped interior. Blah blah. The gc8 had far better ratios for acceleration. The st205 had far longer gearing, which made it feel more sluggish. __________________ Toyota GTV86 - Lexus V8 swapped GT86

03-27-2015, 08:52 PM	#5
swarb Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Drives: BRZ Location: Los Angeles Posts: 3,053 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,451 Times in 1,271 Posts Mentioned: 79 Post(s) Tagged: 0 Thread(s)	I wish we could find all-trac's here. They are very rare. The people who have them for sale usually want too much for them(5k+) or they are on their last leg.

03-28-2015, 03:32 AM	#11
cdrazic93 Junior Join Date: Aug 2013 Drives: a car Location: Probably at school Posts: 4,341 Thanks: 3,184 Thanked 2,512 Times in 1,502 Posts Mentioned: 20 Post(s) Tagged: 0 Thread(s)	if you destroy an all trac celica GT4 I will be so pissed at you. __________________ "Ah! What music! They could have never imagined, those pioneers who invented the automobile, that it would posses us like this, our imaginations, our dreams. Men love women, but even more than that, men love CARS!"-Lord Hesketh

03-28-2015, 12:47 PM	#13
hmong337 Emperor JDM Join Date: Jun 2013 Drives: '91 MR2 Gen3 3SGTE, '13 FRS Location: Onterrible, Canada Posts: 1,750 Thanks: 3,498 Thanked 909 Times in 495 Posts Mentioned: 20 Post(s) Tagged: 3 Thread(s)	Not sure I would say the EJ20 is superior over the 3sgte. If anything, the 3s is slightly better. Less moving parts, easier to service, and still makes great power. The 3s has been pushed into the 1000hp range. Not sure I would ever trust an EJ to do that. __________________

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