Papa Toyota unhappy that the BRZ/86 feels like a Subaru

[Dake]

The new Z is out of contention here because it's still mostly the old Z anyway.

[Willpower]

Originally Posted by Dake

The new Z is out of contention here because it's still mostly the old Z anyway.

I mean I hear ya, I just don’t give a damn if it works.

[Transport3r]

The Z is out cause it’s not a 2+2 lol

[Spankopotomous]

Originally Posted by RToyo86

My understanding is that Subaru was left to lead development on the second gen while Toyota took a back seat approach.

Maybe it's a case of the Subaru stuff like eyesight etc being offered which won't carry over to Toyota models.

TBH I am hoping the GR86 doesn't come with the Subaru safety suite of tech and sensors, it would likely cheaper without them.

[AnalogMan]

Originally Posted by Dake

The new Z is out of contention here because it's still mostly the old Z anyway.

So what? The 370Z chassis is still relevant and competitive in terms of performance, handling, weight, stiffness, most of the things that matter to most buyers.

Basing it on the previous platform also means the price can be lower (putting aside dealer greed and markups). If Nissan designed a completely new platform from scratch, the price would have to be meaningfully higher to pay for the development. If the car came in $5-$10k more, people would then howl that it was 'too expensive!'.

And what would be gained? Maybe save 100 lbs? So much of the 'weight' that some people complain about is due to things that either can't easily be reduced or that most buyers want. Insulation for noise, safety equipment, power everything, heated leather seats, etc. Eliminate those and you'd have an unsellable car except for hard-core track rats, and there's not enough of them to justify a dedicated car (plus taking too much 'weight' out of a car can make it faster on a track, but at the expense of being noisier, more rattly, and feeling 'tinnier' for street use and then some people start whining about 'not enough features' or 'feels too crude').

'New' isn't always necessary, and not necessarily better.

[Dake]

Normally I'd agree, but when your "new" car fails to address the one major critique since it debuted twelve years ago...

[Sport-Tech]

Originally Posted by Dake

Normally I'd agree, but when your "new" car fails to address the one major critique since it debuted twelve years ago...

Are we to infer from your comment that the current sub-standard LSD is being carried over?

[Yoshoobaroo]

Originally Posted by Sport-Tech

Are we to infer from your comment that the current sub-standard LSD is being carried over?

More like no LSD on the base model, and a substandard one one the optioned out ones?

It's not just the viscous LSD. The chassis on the Z is set up to be very capable, but not great to drive at 10/10ths. That's what's pretty magical about the twins, you can drive them at full tilt and it's never really scary and never requires god-like reflexes to keep the car in line. Chris Harris explains it well here:

[Sport-Tech]

^ Good to watch that again, let's see if the new-gen twins can maintain that playfulness Chris describes. From what I saw of Scott Speed's drives, things certainly look promising. And maybe the Z can up its game to be more competitive.

[Red-86]

Originally Posted by Kittykate

It's a good thing too because if it felt like a modern Toyota it'd be fucking boring.

Whereas modern Subarus are the height of white knuckle excitement?

[Red-86]

Originally Posted by ZDan

(240)Z guy from way back... The new Z looks awkward as hell to my eye. Looks like a *big* car

It actually has a footprint very close to the twins re length x width x height. Z is only very slightly larger, you’d have to be some kind of spatial genius to tell just by looking at the cars. The Z is much smaller than the pony cars like Mustang and Camaro.

Big, bulky lower body, but tiny greenhouse and limited space for occupants.

That is just modern design language at work, same as Mustang and Camaro, same as new most cars (even the new BRZ seems to have a slightly higher belt line and slightly reduced glasshouse). The glasshouse belt lines have been rising in all cars, for better side impact safety (more steel, less glass). If you raise the belt line but don’t raise the roof height, you get that relatively small glasshouse, which I think looks fine. Lambos and other Supercars have really narrow glasshouses by necessity since they are so low, and no-one complains there. If you want a giant tall glasshouse with acres of internal room for occupants get an SUV or minivan, not a sports car.

Kind of the antithesis of S30 Z ideals, that was a *small* car but with a surprising amount of space for two occupants and their stuff. I'd rather they did a legit small lightweight 200Z than a 400Z turbo beast that weighs 3400 lb.

Not happening. You can get a restyled 370Z with the 3.0TT V6, or nothing at all from Nissan. The new Z is in the 400HP Supra league. Nissan don’t want to make a lightweight, lower powered car to compete with the twins. If they did, it would be a reborn Silvia, not a Z, which is their powerful GT car.

[AnalogMan]

Originally Posted by Dake

Normally I'd agree, but when your "new" car fails to address the one major critique since it debuted twelve years ago...

I completely agree with you that a mechanical LSD would be vastly preferable to a viscous one. But again, it's the price.

Would you play $1,300 more for a 400Z with a mechanical LSD? Good. Because you could upgrade to one yourself, like a Quaife unit:

https://www.z1motorsports.com/differ...sd-p-2397.html

It's a bit like the BRZ. A (very) reasonable price, that leaves room for people to upgrade as they like. For 95% of people for street driving, a viscous LSD works just fine. For the few percent that are hard-core track rats, fit a mechanical LSD.

Whether or not the rumors are true, the base Z is likely to come in at something under $40k. That's a hell of a bargain for the styling, Japanese build quality, and Mustang GT and Supra beating performance at a lower price. At that cost, there's room for the purists and track enthusiasts who want to install a LSD.

[Transport3r]

Originally Posted by AnalogMan

It's a bit like the BRZ. A (very) reasonable price, that leaves room for people to upgrade as they like. For 95% of people for street driving, a viscous LSD works just fine. For the few percent that are hard-core track rats, fit a mechanical LSD.

Except the BRZ comes with a proper mechanical LSD, and it’s not optional!

[PulsarBeeerz]

Originally Posted by AnalogMan

I completely agree with you that a mechanical LSD would be vastly preferable to a viscous one. But again, it's the price.

Would you play $1,300 more for a 400Z with a mechanical LSD? Good. Because you could upgrade to one yourself, like a Quaife unit:

https://www.z1motorsports.com/differ...sd-p-2397.html

It's a bit like the BRZ. A (very) reasonable price, that leaves room for people to upgrade as they like. For 95% of people for street driving, a viscous LSD works just fine. For the few percent that are hard-core track rats, fit a mechanical LSD.


Whether or not the rumors are true, the base Z is likely to come in at something under $40k. That's a hell of a bargain for the styling, Japanese build quality, andMustang GT and Supra beating performance at a lower price. At that cost, there's room for the purists and track enthusiasts who want to install a LSD.

It's going to be much more than $1300 all said and done for an aftermarket LSD installed with no factory power train warranty possibly even a voided one but OK.

The cars mention come with a decent LSD even a MX5 does but Nissan can't manage one with a $40K *allegedly* recycled sports car...IDK man...

Nothing to base performance claims off of. The car isn't out yet and none of these number are real. The 400Z is rumored to be 3250lb dry weight; its a 3400lb car just like the A91 Supra. But A91 Supras dyno at 380whp so that's what 435-445bhp (accounting for drive-train losses) easily more than 400bhp from the Z as is Mustangs 460hp.

Its not lighter, its not more powerful. Its based off an old chassis again..that isn't known for great dynamics..

Nissan legendary Japanese build quality..

But does come with a manual and looks like two different cars coming and going so that's neat.