(GR86) Second Generation FR-S/BRZ insider info...

[C4RBON]

Originally Posted by HKz

don't think OP has had many real accomplishments in life..let's give him this one for sheer dumb luck by outlasting the hundreds of theorycrafting/next gen/turbo coming threads that have come and gone on this site alone. grats OP, what an "epic" thread!

I don't know you or the OP, but that seems harsh. I don't know how you can infer OP's lifetime achievements through posts on a forum. I think everyone here can share in the excitement of the next generation being announced. We all enjoy the speculation and slow leak of information, substantiated or not.

[C4RBON]

Originally Posted by Dzmitry

Eh... we just need to slow down. One step at a time. Of course questions won't be answered. Tomorrow will still be a big reveal. I think people have just anticipated and questioned so much in the past couple years about this next gen, that they're bored of what they are about to find out and already want to know what the end story of the 2nd gen will be. I like surprises.

But I want to know right meow! How can I maintain a 5yr car plan without exhaustive product plans from every car company?!

I like surprises, too! I'm worried there won't be any, though.

[HKz]

Originally Posted by C4RBON

I don't know you or the OP, but that seems harsh. I don't know how you can infer OP's lifetime achievements through posts on a forum. I think everyone here can share in the excitement of the next generation being announced. We all enjoy the speculation and slow leak of information, substantiated or not.

if you have the time to post multiple times about how awesome your own thread is, a thread that ended up staying alive by pure luck, then I think I can infer there ain't much goin on in your life to be excited about. we are excited about the car, not the OP or how "epic" this thread is.

[wbradley]

I like the look of the car through the mesh curtain but, I only wish the added fender vent was in the rear, feeding a mid-engine. Haha. Perhaps that's expecting too much since even the GR Supra vent is a dummy one. I hope this car is a success again though! And whether it's the SF-R in Japan only or a descendent of the MR2, it would be nice to see Toyota and their partners continue to fuel the affordable (and modifiable) sports car market. And thank you to the Chairman Akio for still believing in sports cars and partnering with companies that help pull it off. This, while operating a massively diversified motor company. Of course huge credit to Subaru engineering and expertise, unique they are and wholly separate from Toyota, although very much striving to reach common goals.

[TheDonEffect]

Originally Posted by sneaky_pete

yep. Toybaru better not pull a mid-life update in a couple of years and suddenly pull a turbo version out of their ar$e.

Frankly at this point this is the only thing that worries me, although I really doubt they do this.

From my perspective, it looks like this is a model they're going to let die. It was never a big seller, dealers typically had to discount them pretty aggressively to move them, sure a special edition here and there sold well but it just looks like they're going to let this thing die.

I think Toyota is starting to wake up that they need to start making their own cars to have any sort of credibility, and Subaru wants to protect their bread and butter WRX cars. I think Toyota was going through a mid-life crisis and did the easy thing (buy gold chains, flashy sports cars, etc) vs doing the work (going to the gym, read a book, etc), and Subaru thought what could they lose by going in with Toyota on a car.

But it would be interesting to see if they drop a turbo motor in there and watch all the purists suddenly trade their cars in for the turbo model.

I think these cars did nothing to help either company's images or lineup, they were such a one off car and not a very inspiring one at that. Subaru is better off just making a WRX coupe, and Toyota making something like the GR Yaris or AWD Corolla. With both companies wanting to use their global platforms, to which you have to wonder just how much of that is shared between the brands, that they could make an enthusiast oriented car while boosting the image of the line that variant is based on, like the STI does for Imprezas and what a GR Yaris/Corolla could do for that lineup.

I think there's just too much politics to make a turbo variant work, since it will cannibalize into WRX/STI sales while having a Toyota version to compete with. I don't think the 86 would compete directly with the base model Supra- those consumers are buying based on the looks than the performance, and would not cross shop the two just because the 86 now has a turbo. Still, Toyota would want to keep it price sensitive which again Subaru may have a point of contention.

And like I said before, when you really think about it, would I rather have a turbo 250ish hp engine, or 230ish NA engine. Another thing alot of enthusiasts forget is that while they may give us the turbo motor, it doesn't guarantee it will be a good one. No way they put in the sti motor for less money, no way they put in a bigger displacement engine for potential tax concerns.

Take the 400Z, people are already hesitating because theyre not all coming with the 400hp variant, the less v6 has (IIRC) a less turbo setup for starters.

Point is, if they just give us a healthy NA motor, and that there will be options for FI in the aftermarket, why bother?

I think this refresh just needs to ride out the planned life cycle of the platform and then it'll get axed.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by C4RBON

To be honest I'm surprised we are getting a 2nd gen at all.

I am as well. There were some early industry indicators that were certainly casting some doubt onto whether it would ever hit production. The saving grace may have been that they were simply too far along the process to economically drop it and it was actually cheaper to move ahead.
Even if it is something that will not interest me personally it help keep the segment alive for a bit longer!

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

I am as well.

We still don't know if there will be a Toyota version yet, do we? I would imagine there will be, just to cover volume, but Toyota is being very quiet about this.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by TheDonEffect

Frankly at this point this is the only thing that worries me, although I really doubt they do this.

From my perspective, it looks like this is a model they're going to let die. It was never a big seller, dealers typically had to discount them pretty aggressively to move them, sure a special edition here and there sold well but it just looks like they're going to let this thing die.

I think Toyota is starting to wake up that they need to start making their own cars to have any sort of credibility, and Subaru wants to protect their bread and butter WRX cars. I think Toyota was going through a mid-life crisis and did the easy thing (buy gold chains, flashy sports cars, etc) vs doing the work (going to the gym, read a book, etc), and Subaru thought what could they lose by going in with Toyota on a car.

But it would be interesting to see if they drop a turbo motor in there and watch all the purists suddenly trade their cars in for the turbo model.

I think these cars did nothing to help either company's images or lineup, they were such a one off car and not a very inspiring one at that. Subaru is better off just making a WRX coupe, and Toyota making something like the GR Yaris or AWD Corolla. With both companies wanting to use their global platforms, to which you have to wonder just how much of that is shared between the brands, that they could make an enthusiast oriented car while boosting the image of the line that variant is based on, like the STI does for Imprezas and what a GR Yaris/Corolla could do for that lineup.

I think there's just too much politics to make a turbo variant work, since it will cannibalize into WRX/STI sales while having a Toyota version to compete with. I don't think the 86 would compete directly with the base model Supra- those consumers are buying based on the looks than the performance, and would not cross shop the two just because the 86 now has a turbo. Still, Toyota would want to keep it price sensitive which again Subaru may have a point of contention.

And like I said before, when you really think about it, would I rather have a turbo 250ish hp engine, or 230ish NA engine. Another thing alot of enthusiasts forget is that while they may give us the turbo motor, it doesn't guarantee it will be a good one. No way they put in the sti motor for less money, no way they put in a bigger displacement engine for potential tax concerns.

Take the 400Z, people are already hesitating because theyre not all coming with the 400hp variant, the less v6 has (IIRC) a less turbo setup for starters.

Point is, if they just give us a healthy NA motor, and that there will be options for FI in the aftermarket, why bother?

I think this refresh just needs to ride out the planned life cycle of the platform and then it'll get axed.

That may be your regional perspective but in other areas the demand was so high they were getting a premium on them. You are in a market region that is vastly different from the rest of the continent.


Politics and cannibalizing the market are not factors if they decide they want to do something. People asked for a certain car and that is what they gave us. If a certain other group of people want to complain that that isn't what they wanted the companies just don't care. There is no need to try to rationalize why they do what they do since we have no access to all their product research data.


I 100% agree with your last point. They had a planned run time and contracts in place. As I said above I am surprised they moved forward in this current economic climate but they know what they are doing. They will run out the contracts and that will be the end of it. The hybrids and electrics will fill the void.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

We still don't know if there will be a Toyota version yet, do we? I would imagine there will be, just to cover volume, but Toyota is being very quiet about this.

Not one single official word after the October 2018 press release that they would be teaming up for a second gen. Not a whisper.
As ichi has already told us even the development had very, very little Toyota input.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by TheDonEffect

I think these cars did nothing to help either company's images or lineup, they were such a one off car and not a very inspiring one at that.

Coming from a 550hp LS3 FD RX-7, AP1 S2000 before that, and a 255rwhp 240Z before that, IMO the FT86 twins are about the most inspiring things to drive on the market right now, for any kind of semi-reasonable $$$ anyway. I say this having driven mine alongside my '11 Cayman 2.9 on the street and at the track last year. I kept the car I liked best between those two, and it wasn't really even close!

I get a surprising amount of positive feedback from "non-car" people. I think these cars have made and continue to make a good impression.

Anyway, the whole world is about to change, at least we get one more generation of these, hopefully better in most ways. Actually I just hope the weight gain is minimal (or nonexistent). Looking forward to tomorrow's news

[C4RBON]

We've seen two different front bumpers, so I'm assuming there will be a Toyota version. Although it remains to be seen if both Subaru and Toyota versions are available in all markets.

[builtness]

Originally Posted by ZDan

Coming from a 550hp LS3 FD RX-7, AP1 S2000 before that, and a 255rwhp 240Z before that, IMO the FT86 twins are about the most inspiring things to drive on the market right now, for any kind of semi-reasonable $$$ anyway. I say this having driven mine alongside my '11 Cayman 2.9 on the street and at the track last year. I kept the car I liked best between those two, and it wasn't really even close!

I get a surprising amount of positive feedback from "non-car" people. I think these cars have made and continue to make a good impression.

Anyway, the whole world is about to change, at least we get one more generation of these, hopefully better in most ways. Actually I just hope the weight gain is minimal (or nonexistent). Looking forward to tomorrow's news

I had the same stable of cars you've listed above, I absolutely agree with you! It's like driving a RX7 Fd, but better and modern! The experience and connection is like no other.

[HKz]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

We still don't know if there will be a Toyota version yet, do we? I would imagine there will be, just to cover volume, but Toyota is being very quiet about this.

well we can tell that the bumper that we saw on the mule testing against the mustang is not the same bumper from the teaser from subaru's website which looks like the bumper from the car that was covered by the mesh. think pretty reasonable to infer they are both a lock.

[TheDonEffect]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

That may be your regional perspective but in other areas the demand was so high they were getting a premium on them. You are in a market region that is vastly different from the rest of the continent.


Politics and cannibalizing the market are not factors if they decide they want to do something. People asked for a certain car and that is what they gave us. If a certain other group of people want to complain that that isn't what they wanted the companies just don't care. There is no need to try to rationalize why they do what they do since we have no access to all their product research data.


I 100% agree with your last point. They had a planned run time and contracts in place. As I said above I am surprised they moved forward in this current economic climate but they know what they are doing. They will run out the contracts and that will be the end of it. The hybrids and electrics will fill the void.

Which regions? I'm in the bay area where virtually every car with a remote amount of demand gets an ADM or sells for close to MSRP. We usually have to buy out of state to get a decent deal. And even here they were being discounted by 2014. WRXs in contrast here are difficult to get for invoice, usually sell for msrp as there is plenty of demand. I know some places on the east coast is similar, or certain low volume dealers that get minimal supply.

I believe they recognized a niche group of buyers who want to buy cars like the AE86, 240sx, integras, etc, but don't want a project car per se. Given how relatively small the practical dimensions of this car are, I think they really bucked the trend of making a car that would satisfy a wide audience. But I really do believe the internal politics really kept this thing from having a turbo motor. Consider that the GR Yaris happened, and quickly for that matter, without Subaru being involved. I gotta believe that if they tasked Subaru to make something like that for Toyota, Subaru would not want to do it. It's similar to why the Supra didnt originally come with a proper M motor, although it looks like it may now.