follow ft86club on our blog, twitter or facebook.
FT86CLUB
Ft86Club
Delicious Tuning
Register Garage Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   Toyota GR86, 86, FR-S and Subaru BRZ Forum & Owners Community - FT86CLUB > Technical Topics > Suspension | Chassis | Brakes -- Sponsored by 949 Racing

Suspension | Chassis | Brakes -- Sponsored by 949 Racing Relating to suspension, chassis, and brakes. Sponsored by 949 Racing.


User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 05-06-2020, 12:54 PM   #197
Ernest72
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Drives: 16 Silver BRZ, 04 Silver WRX wagon
Location: Rockland county, NY
Posts: 1,410
Thanks: 181
Thanked 768 Times in 439 Posts
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Fight all you want. Rarely are things black and white, usually shades of gray.

What I read is that doing a swap, whether the STI version, the caddy version is not optimal and not a real upgrade. If done for show for street and DD, the implications are likely not an issue. If autox and track are your thing then likely it’s not a good thing and you would be better off with brakes designed for the car.

As far as brembo having an interest, they are just stating the facts. Any product is designed for a certain use in general, people will always take these products and adapt them to other things. Sometimes it works, other times it does not.

There is likely someone tracking with swapped brakes and it’s working, but perhaps not as good as a purpose built BBK. The difference in price and performance may be worth it to that person or not. Truth is if you had the money you would do it right.
Ernest72 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2020, 01:17 PM   #198
Adamf220
Member
 
Join Date: May 2014
Drives: 2013 frs
Location: michigan
Posts: 96
Thanks: 14
Thanked 24 Times in 17 Posts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ernest72 View Post
Fight all you want. Rarely are things black and white, usually shades of gray.

What I read is that doing a swap, whether the STI version, the caddy version is not optimal and not a real upgrade. If done for show for street and DD, the implications are likely not an issue. If autox and track are your thing then likely it’s not a good thing and you would be better off with brakes designed for the car.

As far as brembo having an interest, they are just stating the facts. Any product is designed for a certain use in general, people will always take these products and adapt them to other things. Sometimes it works, other times it does not.

There is likely someone tracking with swapped brakes and it’s working, but perhaps not as good as a purpose built BBK. The difference in price and performance may be worth it to that person or not. Truth is if you had the money you would do it right.
Well yes obviously if we all had the money we would do it right. But i feel it is an upgrade just in rotor size alone. But I am getting better on the track and starting to find the limits of my stock brakes with SS lines Track Pads and rotors and DOT 4. If i can retrofit STI brakes that will cool better and have arguably more torque for $1500 for all 4 axles vs buying a $2000 set for just the front that will mess up the bias even more then i think i should do it. Or $4000+ for a full set of upgraded brakes. That's a crazy amount of money if I am not building a purpose built race car.
Adamf220 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2020, 03:10 PM   #199
CSG Mike
 
CSG Mike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Drives: S2000 CR
Location: Orange County
Posts: 14,522
Thanks: 8,911
Thanked 14,166 Times in 6,828 Posts
Mentioned: 966 Post(s)
Tagged: 14 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adamf220 View Post
Well yes obviously if we all had the money we would do it right. But i feel it is an upgrade just in rotor size alone. But I am getting better on the track and starting to find the limits of my stock brakes with SS lines Track Pads and rotors and DOT 4. If i can retrofit STI brakes that will cool better and have arguably more torque for $1500 for all 4 axles vs buying a $2000 set for just the front that will mess up the bias even more then i think i should do it. Or $4000+ for a full set of upgraded brakes. That's a crazy amount of money if I am not building a purpose built race car.
You get net less effective stopping power, because ABS engages anytime *one* wheel loses traction. When you unbalance the front/rear bias, you now enable one axle to do more work, causing the other axle to do less work, causing ABS to intervene earlier.

Stopping distances are hurt, as is ability to properly trail brake and load.

Remember, stopping distances are determined by tire grip, not by "how powerful" your brakes are or "how much torque/friction you have". By altering the bias, you increase the rate at which the two tires are overwhelmed, and decreas the rate at which the other two are overwhelmed.
CSG Mike is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to CSG Mike For This Useful Post:
MrSkubi (05-07-2020), Thefalls (05-11-2020), why? (05-07-2020)
Old 05-06-2020, 03:23 PM   #200
churchx
Senior Member
 
churchx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Drives: 2014 GT86
Location: Latvia, Riga
Posts: 4,333
Thanks: 696
Thanked 2,085 Times in 1,436 Posts
Mentioned: 53 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
And as brake fluid used is referred as generic as DOT4 with no mention of dry/wet boiling temps, and pads are as generic named "track pads" without specific vendor and pad compound type, i suspect that there is lot left on the table even with stock brakes capabilities/thermal capacity.
churchx is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to churchx For This Useful Post:
NoHaveMSG (05-07-2020), why? (05-07-2020)
Old 05-06-2020, 03:45 PM   #201
Ernest72
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Drives: 16 Silver BRZ, 04 Silver WRX wagon
Location: Rockland county, NY
Posts: 1,410
Thanks: 181
Thanked 768 Times in 439 Posts
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adamf220 View Post
Well yes obviously if we all had the money we would do it right. But i feel it is an upgrade just in rotor size alone. But I am getting better on the track and starting to find the limits of my stock brakes with SS lines Track Pads and rotors and DOT 4. If i can retrofit STI brakes that will cool better and have arguably more torque for $1500 for all 4 axles vs buying a $2000 set for just the front that will mess up the bias even more then i think i should do it. Or $4000+ for a full set of upgraded brakes. That's a crazy amount of money if I am not building a purpose built race car.
If it is working for you then go with it. Without real world data to compare with others with different setups, it will be difficult to assess. It’s not like you are a race team that can analyze everything to death. You are literally just going by feel and your track times. If the correct brakes improve your times by a “x” amount is it worth twice the cost. Only you can answer that question. But based on what many are saying and brembo themselves, your braking could be better. The cost/benefit will always be debatable and subjective.
Ernest72 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2020, 04:42 PM   #202
dreamwonder
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Drives: GR86 2022
Location: Boston MA
Posts: 295
Thanks: 10
Thanked 197 Times in 72 Posts
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Hardly ever mentioned...poor man's bbk 2015+ wrx calipers (not sti brembos). Can be had for $100 used. Centric rotors run $80 a pair. Rotors last about 25 days if not more. I usually change them out half way through the season, so never when beyond 25 days. Brake bias changed? Yes. Dust boot burns out? Yes. At $100 a pair I just trash them at the end of the season and install a fresh pair.

Clears base stock 17in wheels so I can use them for daily and in the winter. And not having to worry about fitment issues (Enkei 17x9 45mm for example is a hard fit for most if not all bbks).

Last edited by dreamwonder; 05-06-2020 at 04:56 PM.
dreamwonder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2020, 04:56 PM   #203
Adamf220
Member
 
Join Date: May 2014
Drives: 2013 frs
Location: michigan
Posts: 96
Thanks: 14
Thanked 24 Times in 17 Posts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Thanks Mike that was very well written and very informative. And while yes there is definitely room for improvement with my current setup going to dba 2 piece rotors and super expensive pads. I'm currently running Powerstop track day spec pad and they work damn good for the price and Napa dot 4 which has been proven to be good as well. But is spending $800+ going to get me to the base of what a brembo would perform at be worth it? Who's to say, could be. So let's look at three options for brembos the STI, Grand Turismo, and the PP brakes. All use the same size rotor and pads, all have different piston sizes so each will have a different change on bias. So I guess you would have to know what the change is and if its in acceptable range does more rear bias work better more front? As close to stock?
Adamf220 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2020, 01:34 PM   #204
CrowsFeast
Senior Member
 
CrowsFeast's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Drives: 2013 BRZ Sport-Tech
Location: Toronto
Posts: 354
Thanks: 184
Thanked 179 Times in 121 Posts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by CSG Mike View Post
You get net less effective stopping power, because ABS engages anytime *one* wheel loses traction. When you unbalance the front/rear bias, you now enable one axle to do more work, causing the other axle to do less work, causing ABS to intervene earlier.

Stopping distances are hurt, as is ability to properly trail brake and load.

Remember, stopping distances are determined by tire grip, not by "how powerful" your brakes are or "how much torque/friction you have". By altering the bias, you increase the rate at which the two tires are overwhelmed, and decreas the rate at which the other two are overwhelmed.
With upgraded brakes and tires (especially the tires) wouldn't you expect increased load transfer to the front (assuming straight line braking) and as such you would actually WANT to change the bias to the front as there's more grip available there and now less in the rear?

I'm just bench racing with this idea though since I'm using the stock wheels for winter driving, and Canadian winters (salt) I won't be doing any bbk upgrades anyway.
CrowsFeast is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2020, 01:53 PM   #205
churchx
Senior Member
 
churchx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Drives: 2014 GT86
Location: Latvia, Riga
Posts: 4,333
Thanks: 696
Thanked 2,085 Times in 1,436 Posts
Mentioned: 53 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
The more there is grip, indeed, more mass transfer & "ideal" bias is more to front (and vice versa, the less grip, till even something like on gravel road or on ice, "ideal" is closer to 50:50). Aftermarket aero also might be reason for bias change, as it may increase overall grip and also be differently balanced front/rear downforce wise.
Then again, most people daily drive theirs instead of making track-only, and on street rarely someone drives on hoosier track slicks, if nothing else then due their wet grip, need of heatup to working temps and insane wear rate. As for generic case, for most, that mostly drive theirs daily, only fraction of which, only sometimes take it to the track, obviously stock bias fits well most of a time. But those that made their dedicated track car usually are competent enough on wished best setups and may have also brake biasing valve installed. Or in simplest case - use staggered brakepad compounds front-rear.
churchx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2020, 04:16 PM   #206
CSG Mike
 
CSG Mike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Drives: S2000 CR
Location: Orange County
Posts: 14,522
Thanks: 8,911
Thanked 14,166 Times in 6,828 Posts
Mentioned: 966 Post(s)
Tagged: 14 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adamf220 View Post
Thanks Mike that was very well written and very informative. And while yes there is definitely room for improvement with my current setup going to dba 2 piece rotors and super expensive pads. I'm currently running Powerstop track day spec pad and they work damn good for the price and Napa dot 4 which has been proven to be good as well. But is spending $800+ going to get me to the base of what a brembo would perform at be worth it? Who's to say, could be. So let's look at three options for brembos the STI, Grand Turismo, and the PP brakes. All use the same size rotor and pads, all have different piston sizes so each will have a different change on bias. So I guess you would have to know what the change is and if its in acceptable range does more rear bias work better more front? As close to stock?
A/B testing stock vs frankenstein with a datalogger such as an AIM Solo DL or AIM Solo 2 DL, is pretty conclusive.

Every time I've seen this comparison done, the result is the same; the frankenstein "upgrade" dramatically hurts stopping distances.

If your metric is disc life, rather than stopping distance, well, remember you're spending a lot of money to go fast on track, not to save rotor cost that ultimately amortizes into the same value as a few gallons of gas per track day.
CSG Mike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2020, 05:20 PM   #207
ls1ac
Senior Member
 
ls1ac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Drives: BRZ, Noble M400, AC-LS7,1956 AC
Location: Wi/Fl
Posts: 1,022
Thanks: 328
Thanked 867 Times in 471 Posts
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Garage
Just to throw it out. When we first got the car we wondered how it would do at the track as delivered. We got black flagged for having bright cherry rotors in the front. They were afraid we would boil the fluid and have no brakes. (track pads in stock calipers) We changed to bigger disks, four pot calipers cooling duck and stainless lines. Cooling was our issue not stopping distance. Never had a balance problem, and have not had a problem since. I use as a DD with no problem either. I have never felt the ABS kick in but maybe it is so much better than the old units I can not feel it.


These cars are amazing, even in stock dress. Only when we push it way beyond normal do little things appear.




edit: it is a system designed for the car, but not Brembo.
ls1ac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2020, 05:58 PM   #208
NoHaveMSG
Senior Member
 
NoHaveMSG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Drives: Crapcan
Location: Oregon
Posts: 11,118
Thanks: 18,090
Thanked 16,253 Times in 7,346 Posts
Mentioned: 106 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by churchx View Post
And as brake fluid used is referred as generic as DOT4 with no mention of dry/wet boiling temps, and pads are as generic named "track pads" without specific vendor and pad compound type, i suspect that there is lot left on the table even with stock brakes capabilities/thermal capacity.
I was thinking the same. There is a pretty dramatic difference in "track pads and fluid." Even though I am on a BBK I doubt I am beyond the capability of the stock calipers if I was running good pads and fluid. There are enough fast 86Cup guys on stock calipers to prove it.
__________________
"Experience is the hardest kind of teacher. It gives you the test first and the lesson afterward." -Oscar Wilde.
NoHaveMSG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2020, 05:21 PM   #209
CSG Mike
 
CSG Mike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Drives: S2000 CR
Location: Orange County
Posts: 14,522
Thanks: 8,911
Thanked 14,166 Times in 6,828 Posts
Mentioned: 966 Post(s)
Tagged: 14 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG View Post
I was thinking the same. There is a pretty dramatic difference in "track pads and fluid." Even though I am on a BBK I doubt I am beyond the capability of the stock calipers if I was running good pads and fluid. There are enough fast 86Cup guys on stock calipers to prove it.
They also regularly swap their calipers for fresh ones. The difference when its degrading over time isn't noticeable, but as soon as the fresh caliper goes on, the change back to "proper" is very noticeable.

Same as swapping stock dampers for fresh stock ones after 5 track days.

This applies not just to fast guys but also anyone who's not a complete novice, and has even the faintest understand of threshold braking.
CSG Mike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2020, 05:28 PM   #210
NoHaveMSG
Senior Member
 
NoHaveMSG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Drives: Crapcan
Location: Oregon
Posts: 11,118
Thanks: 18,090
Thanked 16,253 Times in 7,346 Posts
Mentioned: 106 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by CSG Mike View Post
They also regularly swap their calipers for fresh ones. The difference when its degrading over time isn't noticeable, but as soon as the fresh caliper goes on, the change back to "proper" is very noticeable.

Same as swapping stock dampers for fresh stock ones after 5 track days.

This applies not just to fast guys but also anyone who's not a complete novice, and has even the faintest understand of threshold braking.
Are they scoring the piston bores that badly?
__________________
"Experience is the hardest kind of teacher. It gives you the test first and the lesson afterward." -Oscar Wilde.
NoHaveMSG is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
The Truth Will Set You Free~ Kiske Off-Topic Lounge [WARNING: NO POLITICS] 8 01-06-2015 07:53 AM
Moment of truth. Humor is welcome! gt8613 Off-Topic Lounge [WARNING: NO POLITICS] 12 11-11-2014 02:08 PM
any truth to this? fluffy-reindeer-slayer Scion FR-S / Toyota 86 GT86 General Forum 17 06-11-2014 08:00 PM
An inconvenient Truth Maxim Scion FR-S / Toyota 86 GT86 General Forum 49 06-17-2011 10:35 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:33 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging v3.3.0 (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2024 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

Garage vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.