Honda J series v6 swap?

[venturaII]

Excellent info - thanks for your open mind and willingness to be a positive contributor to this thread.

[mid_life_crisis]

Originally Posted by NOHOME

Who knew that Martians were into engine swaps?


(Let's see who else can figure that out)

I will get you a glass of water.

[ort895]

I think this is awesome. I'm a big fan of v6's and the torque that comes with em.
If be interested in this..... Somebody go first lol

[Spartarus]

One wonders, if you just had to shoehorn a honda v6 in there, why you wouldn't use the old 90 degree C-series for the height.

You're going to have to pour a similar amount of money into either engine to get it to make real power anyway...

[86Tony]

for the guys that dont know much about hondas here is my buddy 723whp j series http://acurazine.com/forums/performa...00-whp-901774/

[venturaII]

Originally Posted by Spartarus

One wonders, if you just had to shoehorn a honda v6 in there, why you wouldn't use the old 90 degree C-series for the height.

You're going to have to pour a similar amount of money into either engine to get it to make real power anyway...

What's 'real' power? 300bhp and 275ft/lbs tq? People spend 5 grand on the FA20 to hit those numbers, and they're achievable on a J series with a reflash and headers.

[Spartarus]

Originally Posted by venturaII

What's 'real' power? 300bhp and 275ft/lbs tq? People spend 5 grand on the FA20 to hit those numbers, and they're achievable on a J series with a reflash and headers.

Ah yes... But it becomes a question of fixed cost vs marginal cost... When it costs the big end of 10 grand and change to shoehorn the b*tch in there in the first place, adding power to it becomes a less consequential expense.

There are a few engine swaps that are preferable to a J-series in literally every quantifiable way. So, my question stands; if you just have to have a honda v6 in there, just for the sake of having a honda v6 in there, why not pick one that will fit properly?

[venturaII]

Originally Posted by Spartarus

Ah yes... But it becomes a question of fixed cost vs marginal cost... When it costs the big end of 10 grand and change to shoehorn the b*tch in there in the first place, adding power to it becomes a less consequential expense.

There are a few engine swaps that are preferable to a J-series in literally every quantifiable way. So, my question stands; if you just have to have a honda v6 in there, just for the sake of having a honda v6 in there, why not pick one that will fit properly?

The cost of the swap is completely dependent upon your goals. 300 bhp is not going to be a $10K swap. Most people are shooting for the moon with swaps, so naturally all the ancillary equipment gets modified as well. But a ~300 bhp N/A v6 isn't going to break anything any more than a F/I FA20 would, and arguably might even be easier on the driveline. So, tell me which Honda v6 will fit better than a J series? Please don't say the C series just because it's a 90 degree motor...the J series was developed specifically as a replacement for the C series with improved packaging as one of the main criteria, with a compact crank and short rods as one of the ways they achieved this for improving overall height. The C is also FAR outperformed by the J series of equivalent (or even smaller) displacement. Are there better motors than the Honda J? Sure. But if you're specifically looking for a light, compact 6 cylinder in the 300bhp range, and available in any boneyard in America, your choices have suddenly been narrowed considerably.

[Draco-REX]

Maybe I missed this answer somewhere, but: Why this engine when a LS V8 has less vertical clearance, similar weight, and more power and torque?

Honda motors are designed for efficiency and reliability as a primary focus. So it seems to me that by going with this engine choice, you'd be already starting off on the wrong foot. It doesn't make sense to me. But then, there are people who spend a lot of time and money making FWD drag racers, so maybe this falls under a similar mindset?

[ort895]

Originally Posted by Draco-REX

Maybe I missed this answer somewhere, but: Why this engine when a LS V8 has less vertical clearance, similar weight, and more power and torque?

Honda motors are designed for efficiency and reliability as a primary focus. So it seems to me that by going with this engine choice, you'd be already starting off on the wrong foot. It doesn't make sense to me. But then, there are people who spend a lot of time and money making FWD drag racers, so maybe this falls under a similar mindset?

I think you can find these relatively cheap whereas I'm not so sure about ls's.

[venturaII]

Originally Posted by Draco-REX

Maybe I missed this answer somewhere, but: Why this engine when a LS V8 has less vertical clearance, similar weight, and more power and torque?

Honda motors are designed for efficiency and reliability as a primary focus. So it seems to me that by going with this engine choice, you'd be already starting off on the wrong foot. It doesn't make sense to me. But then, there are people who spend a lot of time and money making FWD drag racers, so maybe this falls under a similar mindset?

An LS is still going to weigh more than the J, and while I realize that being a pushrod motor make the LS very compact, I still question whether it'd be shorter or narrower than the J. It also requires a transmission swap, and at least an axle upgrade if you want it to be reasonably reliable. None of that is necessary with the J swap.

[Spartarus]

Originally Posted by venturaII

The cost of the swap is completely dependent upon your goals. 300 bhp is not going to be a $10K swap... Please don't say the C series just because it's a 90 degree motor ... the J series was developed specifically as a replacement for the C series with improved packaging as one of the main criteria ... But if you're specifically looking for a light, compact 6 cylinder in the 300bhp range, and available in any boneyard in America, your choices have suddenly been narrowed considerably.

Point A: First, read the "I swapped a v8 for less than 10K" thread. The cost of the engine is not significant in the cost of a swap, even "on the cheap." I'm assuming the baseline is having the car working, and nothing jerry-rigged. Using the Honda ECU & wiring harness is not an option, unless you want no gauges, no airbags, no ABS, no TRAC, and no control of the FUEL PUMP duty cycle in your returnless fuel system... in other words, not a legal or running car..

Compatible ECU - $2500 (at the lowest)
Adapter plate - $1000
Clutch & Flywheel - $800
Custom Headers - $1000
Wiring - $1000 (this is a very optimistic estimate. This means doing most of it yourself, and buying connectors, tools, and relays.)
Tuning & Dyno time - $500 (for a baseline)
Custom oil pan - $500 ( this will be necessary to clear )
Engine mounts - $500 (unless you've got a welder and you're good, then forget this line item)
Custom intake - $100 (If you do it yourself)
Misc. fuel fittings - $150 (if you keep the stock returnless system and only adapt the stock lines to the honda fuel rails, controlling the pump duty cycle, and therefore line pressure, via the compatible ECU. Otherwise, up this to $1200 or more to build a return fuel system with an inline regulator.

We're up over 8 grand before the engine on a bare-bones swap with no improved components. It will be a $10k swap at a bare minimum, if nothing goes wrong, and you're cheap, lucky, and optimistic.

Point B, your claim about packaging means nothing without measurements. I will admit, my claim is pretty meaningless for the same reason, but you are trying to disprove me, not the other way around.

Point C, the C30 from the NSX will make over 300 BHP with just tuning, no headers, and can hit 9000 RPM from the factory with no modifications. Every C-series can be tuned to make over 100 BHP/liter, with off-the-shelf parts. The C-series has 2 separate derivatives available in DOHC. Don't discount the C-motor so quickly.

Originally Posted by ort895

I think you can find these relatively cheap whereas I'm not so sure about ls's.

You can find an LS-series and a transmission with 100K miles for under 3k. Selling the FA20 and trans nets a profit off of changing engines. Profit goes to rebuild, and voila, you have a great engine for cheap.

But, read the "v8 swap under 10K" thread, and you will find out that the cost of the engine and trans alone are insignificant. Even if you do the rest of the swap "on the extra-cheap," It is still an expensive ordeal.

Originally Posted by venturaII

An LS is still going to weigh more than the J, and while I realize that being a pushrod motor make the LS very compact, I still question whether it'd be shorter or narrower than the J. It also requires a transmission swap, and at least an axle upgrade if you want it to be reasonably reliable. None of that is necessary with the J swap.

The SOHC heads on the J are taller than you think.

The intake manifold raises the height significantly. Most 60 degree v6 engines fit in the bay, with heads, just barely... But the intake manifold doesn't even come close to fitting. The J has the shortest one I've seen, but it doesn't matter, I bet it doesn't fit without modifying the hood.

You need a front sump oil pan to clear the crossmember. Even then, the engine sits relatively high. The height restriction is significant, and the crossmember is a significant hurdle. Heh.. Hurdle... See what I did there?

Why does it need to be shorter or narrower? Our engine bay is over 31 inches wide! What are you going to DO with the extra space if you don't use it? The engine bay is long enough to accommodate a 6-and-a-half liter v8 with no clearancing! The only dimension that limits this engine bay is the height, and height is coincidentally the only packaging dimension that the J-series V6 is going to cause you trouble in.

Additionally, I wouldn't be so sure about it being lighter than an LS. Remember, the LS outweighs our little 4-banger by less than 100 pounds. Heads with cams in them are heavy. Again, meaningless without numbers.

[venturaII]

Originally Posted by Spartarus

stuff.

You know, I was going to spend the time countering nearly every point you tried to make, but honestly I'm really not interested in doing this. This swap clearly isn't for you, and honestly I doubt any swap would be. Fine. Move along.

[Summerwolf]

Originally Posted by venturaII

You know, I was going to spend the time countering nearly every point you tried to make, but honestly I'm really not interested in doing this. This swap clearly isn't for you, and honestly I doubt any swap would be. Fine. Move along.

Is it really even worth countering. It is all spot on, reasonably written and well thought out.


LS Engine - 497.2 for a manual


From General Motors Corvette web site: http://www.chevrolet.com/corvette/

Click on the small, "Specifications" link at the left hand side of this page. On the page that appears, scroll 3/4 of the way down to "Engine Specifications."

From the General himself...
quote:

Total dressed engine mass (wt.) dry
457.6 lb. automatic
497.2 lb. manual

end quote

The manual version would appear to have a flywheel that weighs 40 lb. MORE than the automatic version's flex plate.


LS Short blocks in general: http://ls1tech.com/forums/generation...ls-blocks.html






J series - 550 lbs
http://www.superstreetonline.com/how...train-weights/


So...there goes the weight argument at least.