Need help from some experts

[tiz22]

Hopefully I don't get flamed too much for these questions...but this is my first car that I'll be swapping wheels/tires and I want to make sure I get it right.

First off, can anyone give me a rundown of the pros/cons of going with 18s over 17s, wider (9.5ish) over slimmer, etc. ? I understand the basics but just an overview of size + setup considerations would be really appreciated.

Next, I contemplated lowering but as this is a DD - I'm really not into the idea of having to go over speed bumps, etc. on an angle just to avoid a bottom-out...The stock height feels stiff already and I've heard it only gets worse with coilovers...So springs with a 1" drop to get rid of the gap would be my max...But even that I'm hesitant - any advice is appreciated.

Last...I have a Raven FR-S and I've been searching for months for the perfect wheels...I want a sleek/understated look (not too flashy) so I think black on black is my best bet...I'm contemplating
- Rota PWR http://www.wheeldude.com/catalog/pro...oducts_id=6776
- WORK Emotion Kiwami http://www.ravspec.com/shop/work-emotion-kiwami-3
- ADVAN RSII http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25979
The pricing of all 3 differ by quite a bit and I'm not sure if the extra $ is worth it...Again, any insight is appreciated

The more info I get the better - I want to learn more about all of this!

[funcheung]

I currently run 18x8.5 and 18x9.5 wheels on my car. The only pros i can think of is the looks of it imo. Running bigger wheels or wider tires slows down the car. That is why i run 17's on the track and 18's for daily basis to look good. +1 for kiwami. I sold my gramlights after using my friends kiwamis on my car for a while. IMO it suited my car better.

Here is the Kiwamis on my car in bronze. My set will be in Work Metal Buff.
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...02&postcount=5

[Diode Dynamics]

I recommend an 18" wheel and some adjustable coilovers.

Pros = better appearance IMO
Cons = More expensive, heavier. Depending on which coils ride may suffer

That's my basic response. You may want to PM a wheel vendor on here for more info!

Thanks,
Nick C.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by tiz22

Hopefully I don't get flamed too much for these questions...but this is my first car that I'll be swapping wheels/tires and I want to make sure I get it right.

First off, can anyone give me a rundown of the pros/cons of going with 18s over 17s, wider (9.5ish) over slimmer, etc. ? I understand the basics but just an overview of size + setup considerations would be really appreciated.

Next, I contemplated lowering but as this is a DD - I'm really not into the idea of having to go over speed bumps, etc. on an angle just to avoid a bottom-out...The stock height feels stiff already and I've heard it only gets worse with coilovers...So springs with a 1" drop to get rid of the gap would be my max...But even that I'm hesitant - any advice is appreciated.

Last...I have a Raven FR-S and I've been searching for months for the perfect wheels...I want a sleek/understated look (not too flashy) so I think black on black is my best bet...I'm contemplating
- Rota PWR http://www.wheeldude.com/catalog/pro...oducts_id=6776
- WORK Emotion Kiwami http://www.ravspec.com/shop/work-emotion-kiwami-3
- ADVAN RSII http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25979
The pricing of all 3 differ by quite a bit and I'm not sure if the extra $ is worth it...Again, any insight is appreciated

The more info I get the better - I want to learn more about all of this!

"18 pros
- Smaller sidewalls (better response)
- Wheel looks better
18" cons
- Heavier than 17" (hurts performance and MPG)
- Makes stock brakes look puny
- Tires generally cost around 30-50% more than equal 17"

Rota = knockoff brand
Work = Legit
Yokohama = Legit

Cheap coilovers make the ride worse. Quality coilovers that are properly dialed in, with softer spring rates, will ride as good as or better than stock.

[tiz22]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

"18 pros
- Smaller sidewalls (better response)
- Wheel looks better
18" cons
- Heavier than 17" (hurts performance and MPG)
- Makes stock brakes look puny
- Tires generally cost around 30-50% more than equal 17"

Rota = knockoff brand
Work = Legit
Yokohama = Legit

Cheap coilovers make the ride worse. Quality coilovers that are properly dialed in, with softer spring rates, will ride as good as or better than stock.

Appreciate everyones feedback so far! I knew Rota had to be knockoff as it tends to be about 50% of the cost of the others...

So my next question would be...Where do I suffer from knockoff? Are they heavier due to sh*ttier material/processes? Or is it just a brand name thing? I think they all look really good but I'm not cheap enough to put poor performing wheels on my car to save a few bucks...But i'm also not vein enough to pay extra purely for a brand name...Know what I'm saying? Again thanks for yours (and everyone else's) opinions

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by tiz22

Appreciate everyones feedback so far! I knew Rota had to be knockoff as it tends to be about 50% of the cost of the others...

So my next question would be...Where do I suffer from knockoff? Are they heavier due to sh*ttier material/processes? Or is it just a brand name thing? I think they all look really good but I'm not cheap enough to put poor performing wheels on my car to save a few bucks...But i'm also not vein enough to pay extra purely for a brand name...Know what I'm saying? Again thanks for yours (and everyone else's) opinions

They're heavier. And/or weaker.

Plus, I'm for supporting innovators, not followers.

[IAmNotTheDriftKing]

Wheels and tires help connect the car to the road. Don't cheap out on them. I would run 17s and a square set up if I were you. Not only is it cheaper but you also help the car stop and accelerate better. There is no downside to 17s other than they aren't as sexy as 18s. But 17s are still sexy as hell.

[hanabie]

Originally Posted by funcheung

Here is the Kiwamis on my car in bronze. My set will be in Work Metal Buff.
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...02&postcount=5

Ditto

here is mine

[Suberman]

Decide what tires you want first. Then buy wheels suitable for the tires.

It is difficult to see how a wider tire than 225, or maybe 235 would work well in this car. That means 8 inch wide wheels max.

Larger wheels are heavier and heavier where it hurts most, at the rim. Generally you want the smallest wheel that will do the job.

If you are looking for performance buy 17x7.5 or 17x8. Fit 225/45 tires.

Toyota fits 18x7.5 with 225/40x18 tires to its TRD option package in the UK. That's about as big as will work on this car.

[cycleboy]

Curious about your definitive reasoning there Suberman?

I'm no expert for sure, but I'm also going to 17X8.5 w/ 245/40/17 and going to save about 3-4 lb per corner over stock.

[Suberman]

Originally Posted by cycleboy

Curious about your definitive reasoning there Suberman?

I'm no expert for sure, but I'm also going to 17X8.5 w/ 245/40/17 and going to save about 3-4 lb per corner over stock.

Wide tires just give you a wider and shorter contact patch, generally speaking. Although this site is very interesting:

http://bndtechsource.ucoz.com/index/...alculator/0-20

Wider and shorter contact patches do not give you better grip, that's a physics thing: total grip is coefficient of friction times area, assuming weight (pressure) is constant. Put another way: coefficient of friction is grip divided by weight with weight being very approximately one quarter of the vehicle weight. As weight goes up due to dynamic forces (called weight transfer) the coefficient of friction remains the same but total grip goes up. So does loading so the net result is the necessary grip remains roughly proportional to the extra load, the coefficient is a constant. For tire rubber this is not strictly speaking true as the rubber isn't just a friction device but the way the tread moves across the road surface (slip angle) also affects total grip. However, it is broadly speaking true.

So, how wide is too wide? A better question is how wide is wide enough?

Shorter contact patches are not so good for acceleration and braking. For cornering you get sharper turn in and a higher rate of rise for total grip but when a wider tire lets go it let's go more suddenly than the taller and narrower profile.

The important thing to grasp is that total tire grip is heavily dependent on tire compound and structure. The tire profile is nowhere near as important. The wider tire will not grip better than the narrower tire.

So, the stock sized 215 tire works very well, although the rubber compound fitted is hopeless. Going up to 225 certainly looks better. I prefer the slightly taller and softer feel of the 225/45 profile. This is a tiny bit over sized circumference but only by under 2%.

The size chosen by Toyota for the European TRD package is 225/40x18 which is exactly the same circumference as the 225/45x17 I chose. Interestingly,Toyota fits this tire to the ideal 18x7.5 rim, not 18x8 which you might be tempted to fit. I'm pleased I followed my instinct and bought 17x7.5 rims instead of the more common 17x8. I'll probably go back to 215/45x17 winter tires on the stock 17x7 rims in a couple of years and retain the 225/45x17 size for summer driving.

Wider rims change the handling characteristics of the same sized tire. Going too wide is generally not effective.

I'm not sure where you are getting your wheel/tire weights but the stock tire is very light, 21lbs, about 3 lbs lighter than any performance tire I've seen. The stock rims are a nice and sturdy but chunky 20lbs each. To give you an idea of how hard it is to better these weights I bought O Z Alleggeritta rims at 15lbs each (one of the lightest rims available for reasonable money) but fit Michelin Pilot Sport A/S 3 tires at a hefty 24lbs each, saving only 1 lb per corner. Low rolling resistance tires are light, but the sidewalls are like wet spaghetti. You lean on those Primacies and they hold on fine until they give up, then you end up sideways pretty suddenly and counter steering very quickly. My snow tires , 225/45x17 Pirelli Sottozeros, are nice and progressive when they finally let go and the car is transformed into a delightful machine, easy to catch and easy to corner. That shouldn't be.

This car is very sensitive to tire choice. Fit big wheels and wide tires and prepare to be disappointed.

[ZionsWrath]

If you just want looks on a DD, 18" 8.5/9.5 stagger.

DD performance? 17x8"

DD and/or track on coils? 17x9"

Compromise looks and performance? 18x8.5" square

[cycleboy]

Originally Posted by Suberman

I'm not sure where you are getting your wheel/tire weights but the stock tire is very light, 21lbs, about 3 lbs lighter than any performance tire I've seen. The stock rims are a nice and sturdy but chunky 20lbs each. To give you an idea of how hard it is to better these weights I bought O Z Alleggeritta rims at 15lbs each (one of the lightest rims available for reasonable money) but fit Michelin Pilot Sport A/S 3 tires at a hefty 24lbs each, saving only 1 lb per corner. Low rolling resistance tires are light, but the sidewalls are like wet spaghetti. You lean on those Primacies and they hold on fine until they give up, then you end up sideways pretty suddenly and counter steering very quickly. My snow tires , 225/45x17 Pirelli Sottozeros, are nice and progressive when they finally let go and the car is transformed into a delightful machine, easy to catch and easy to corner. That shouldn't be.

This car is very sensitive to tire choice. Fit big wheels and wide tires and prepare to be disappointed.

Forgestar F14 17X8.5 - 16.2lb (per digital scale, pic posted on Forgestar facebook page)

Michelin Pilot Super Sport 245/40/17 - 23.1lb (per Michelin site)

Stock = 42lb
My setup = 39.3lb

So my estimate of 3-4 was overstated, it's closer to 2.7.

I didn't quote your info about grip as it's more or less stuff I already know. (Being a cyclist, I'm used to very tiny contact patches.)

[Suberman]

Originally Posted by cycleboy

Forgestar F14 17X8.5 - 16.2lb (per digital scale, pic posted on Forgestar facebook page)

Michelin Pilot Super Sport 245/40/17 - 23.1lb (per Michelin site)

Stock = 42lb
My setup = 39.3lb

So my estimate of 3-4 was overstated, it's closer to 2.7.

I didn't quote your info about grip as it's more or less stuff I already know. (Being a cyclist, I'm used to very tiny contact patches.)

That's a big tire for 200 bhp.