04-11-2021, 04:04 AM | #211 | |
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My impression is that insurance companies are the businesses most aware of climate change. They are the ones who have to weigh the risk of insuring. I have mentioned before that not being able to insure a property has massive flow on effects through an economy.
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04-11-2021, 11:31 AM | #212 | |
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In the presenters line of reasoning, can somebody be opposed to dog fighting and also have no moral objections to eat meat? Does he present that as inconsistent application of morality? |
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04-11-2021, 02:08 PM | #213 | ||
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OK, lets go with a large number. I didn't count or weigh them.
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I will say that having grown up in a family that raised most of our own food, including cows, chickens, pigs, I do not see the slaughter of animals for food as "cruel" when done properly. They should be raised responsibly however.
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04-11-2021, 03:47 PM | #214 | |||
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My original post said this, and it was a video providing counter arguments against anti-veganism. The arguments that followed support the position above in a thread that is centered around "Expert prognosis for the planet", meaning, we are discussing topics around the health and future of the planet. I have since defended that position. Are you suggesting that I am "forcing my will, my beliefs, and my opinions on others" by arguing my views in a forum setting? I lecture and admonish myself, and I am fine with someone doing the same if it is in the context of a debate. I have had a number of religious and other types of debates in my life on both sides, so I am not thinned skin enough to care. Quote:
Most people are overweight, don't work out, eat poor foods, etc, so expecting people to be vegan is a long shot. No one deconverts overnight. Hopefully people can start by reducing their intake of animal products, which is entirely possible considering the average person gets twice the amount of protein they need and far more saturated fat and cholesterol too. Baby steps.
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04-11-2021, 03:51 PM | #215 | |
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That is a good point. I wonder if there is a way to follow what they are doing and/or lobbying/supporting. This was also true of cigarette companies and oil companies as it pertains to lung cancer and climate change, respectively. People who have a dollar to lose or gain tend to predict the future the best.
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04-11-2021, 04:12 PM | #216 | |
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I didn't find his argument very hard to follow, but maybe it is, so hopefully that helped because, as you can see, he is allowing for someone to be against dog fighting and for eating meat, but not merely because it feels right or for personal choice. Clear? For instance, someone could argue that eating meat is cruel, but it is necessary because they are allergic to all plants, but they are also against dog fighting because it is cruel. This would be logically consistent with his first point because someone is sighting "personal choice"; they are sighting a medical condition. People do the same thing with other topics when the topic isn't something they choose for good or sound reasons or when they are uncomfortable about discussing their views or want to avoid discussing their views for any number of reasons. For instance, often religion is sighted as a "personal choice" when someone either can't or doesn't want to argue their beliefs/opinions/position. Sometimes this is because someone has no arguments affirming their choice, and other times it is because the may understand their arguments are weak or may be poorly received, or they want to avoid the debate all together, so "personal choice" is sighted to end the argument, but in the case of eating meat, it is a choice that is a moral choice because it affects others, so it isn't a "personal choice".
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04-11-2021, 04:28 PM | #217 |
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sure seems like the simple answer here is to kill all humans.
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04-11-2021, 04:50 PM | #218 | ||||
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*We are destroying the oceans and critically depleting the fish stocks, so there will likely be a tipping point where the cost of fish will get so high because the ships will have to continue to get bigger and work harder for far less yields. This is happening now where prices continue to go up and the size of fish get smaller, but it'll likely be more dramatic in decades to follow. We are suppose to add another 2 billion more people to the world's population by 2050, and there will be even more emerging economies that will be increasing their standard of living and wanting more resources, so there will be strains on the global supply of food without more growth, more rainforest destruction, more land occupied by farms, etc. The effect of methane production, oil production, CO2 production, etc for livestock and farmland for livestock will become more apparent in time. Just like we are seeing action taken against climate change, people will naturally turn their attention to other offenders. We won't be moving to veganism because of a change in our moral conscious; that is far, far, far further into the future. It will be for practical matters like price, resources, water supply, apparent deforestation, rising subsidies on feed and water for livestock, etc.** **If we just eliminated the subsidies for water and corn and soy and factored in the healthcare and climate disruption costs then the average pound of hamburger meat might cost $35-50/pound. That could cause some changes. Quote:
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04-11-2021, 04:55 PM | #219 | |
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Or institute family planning or a max family size like one or two children per household, and help some countries out of poverty, so they can have longer lives and smaller families.
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04-11-2021, 07:08 PM | #220 |
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04-11-2021, 07:59 PM | #221 | |
Feeling like thinking....
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I know.. that was incredibly condescending and snarky, which is rarely my style, and is far from being kind. However, it was my honest gut reaction to asserting that any human has the right to legislate how many kids a family may have. We should be good stewards of our environment, locally and globally. There is no question there. We should not take pleasure in suffering, whether animal or human. We can do better in all aspects of our lives, including decreasing the environmental impact (whether or not it's as dire as you suggest.... and it isn't) of farming animals for food, and treating the animals raised for food more humanely. Suggesting that we need to ABANDON eating meat because we are destroying the planet by doing so is just... well.... wrong on so many levels. You believe what you wish, and live as you wish. Again, I have no issue with that. I take GREAT issue with the condescending attitude that you are correct and that those who disagree are wrong.
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04-11-2021, 10:53 PM | #222 | ||
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1. The population will continue to grow and/or usage of resources will increase. 2. The population will stabilize or decrease and/or usage of resources will decrease. As economies emerge more and more, we see usage go up and up, so it is highly, highly unlikely we will see a decrease in resources. That leaves population. Population will continue to increase indefinitely if we had unlimited resources like we colonized new planets, but let's say we don't have that option. Only a few things will stop or decrease population: 1. Public sentiment and family planning 2. Government laws restricting family size 3. Disease/environment deaths 4. War 5. Bottlenecks in resources, but war will come before that of course What we actually see is that the poorer someone or country is the higher the family size is, so poverty or famine because of resource scarcity could exacerbate problems. Some of these things are reactive and some are proactive. China tried a proactive approach. India also has tried proactive penalties. Say we don't try a proactive approach, and all we do is try to focus on family planning, we will likely still see another two billion people by 2050, as discussed before. Our planet has finite resources, so we can only expect things to get worse. We can wait and see what happens. Maybe famine or wars or environmental impacts would lead to deaths naturally, but these are probably not the type of futures anyone wants, but they are inevitable unless birth rate stabilizes naturally. Limits on family size might be necessary and accepted in the future. Quote:
Again, you are in a thread about the prognosis of the planet, so we are discussing things that are impacting the environment. I have provided examples supporting my arguments. Do you have arguments supporting a position that the impacts that are happening around the world is not problematic? I'm not really concerned about your feelings while stating positions in an argument. I don't even know where I have been specifically condescending. If arguing against someone else in a debate by providing evidence is condescending then I am guilty.
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04-12-2021, 09:19 AM | #223 | |
Feeling like thinking....
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China and India, those "pro-active" bastions of virtue you mentioned, ARE by and large the two biggest sources of any man-made impact on our environment. China, especially, is also, perhaps not coincidentally, one of the world's biggest violators of human rights and least "free" places to live. Emulating China and India WOULD certainly hasten our path to global destruction. I don't find debate enjoyable. You know very well that I have zero chance of changing your mind, regardless of how much verified data I post, so there's no point. Plus, I don't feel the need to change your mind. As I said earlier...live as you wish. Just maybe learn to respect others who don't share your views, and be open to the possibility that there is more than one way to live a good life. Your way is not the only way. I come here for the beer. This has made the beer taste bad. I'm going back to having fun. Out.
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04-12-2021, 01:44 PM | #224 | |||
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