COVID Developments and News

[Atropine]

Originally Posted by wbradley

Obese people and smokers aren't overwhelming the hospitals all at once requiring urgent care and the unvaccinated are. They are singly responsible for the delays and cancelation of life saving treatments and procedures. But of course self-absorbed people really don't give a shit about anyone else in the end they just want to be free to make their own decisions and put out absurd arguments like the one you just made.

And I do realize this is hypothetical, I do not meant to offend you personally


It sounds to me as though you are convinced there is no solution to this problem since with your suggestion you are basically obscuring the insurmountable fact that the unvaccinated are responsible for approximately 80% of the Covid19 hospital admissions. And of the remaining 20% or so that are vaccinated, many are sick or elderly otherwise and their systems can't keep up despite their willingness to be vaccinated and or use precautions.

This is a waste of my time saying the same stuff over and over again.


For those that still aren't with the program, might I suggest make sure you have life and disability insurance for your loved ones. That is unless you REALLY only care about yourself.

It isn't obese or unvaccinated.

It's the obese AND unvaccinated.

Also, the definition of unvaccinated has changed recently too (the no third shot has been changed to vaccination status: incomplete)

I will say though, most of the admits are unvaccinated (and obese ofc).

I do wish in general that this fact would be mentioned more.

Even if it got young "healthy" people who are in fact BMI greater than 40 to consider the vaccination.

I am still against mandates. But that is because I am a Libertarian.

[wbradley]

The words "conspiracy" and Covid19 should never be spoken in the same sentence. We are all trying to put out fires while the conspiracy theorists stand by and play the violin as it burns.

Obesity is a chronic illness. Smoking is an addiction. Both require longterm treatments, that have varied success. They also require the cooperation of the subject.
Covid19 is a worldwide pandemic. Three very different things. If you approached treating Covid19 indirectly by treating obesity and addiction you would end up with more deaths. No point closing the barn door AFTER the horse has already escaped. And should we also make older people younger so they're less susceptible? Or just write them off?

[Atropine]

Originally Posted by wbradley

The words "conspiracy" and Covid19 should never be spoken in the same sentence. We are all trying to put out the fires while the conspiracy theorists stand by and play the violin as it burns.

Are you honestly ok with the reaction of the global governments in regards to COVID?

You aware that many of the "conspiracy theories" came true?

The Wuhan Lab leak "conspiracy" for one.

COVID is ofc real. But if you don't think that governments didn't quickly use it for a power grab...I honestly do not know what to tell you.

I guess some people value freedom/liberty over the illusion of safety.

Doesn't make either group right or wrong.

[wbradley]

Well Atropine, maybe losing my father has made me more inclined to want to stop this than worry about issues that don't stop this. Prioritization.

You are free to do whatever the hell you want, as long as it doesn't have an adverse effect on others.

Let's face it, there are people who have earned their positions of authority in dealing with these matters. Or, you can listen to some random dude claiming conspiracies on the web.

Do you trust doctors?

I just cannot understand how people get so off track.

[Atropine]

Originally Posted by wbradley

Well Atropine, maybe losing my father has made me more inclined to want to stop this than worry about issues that don't stop this. Prioritization.

Sorry for your loss.

I truly am.

I don't want to get into a "who has suffered more" contest with you.

I understand your perspective. I just don't agree with it. I don't think you are wrong.

I still value my freedom over anything else, to include my personal safety.

As a war vet and a healthcare worker for the last 22 years...maybe death has been my passenger for way too long.

Answering your question: do I trust doctors?

I trust some. I work with some some really shitty and incompetent doctors. I have seen doctors hurt people doing uneeded surgeries because they are chasing money. I do not put doctors on a pedestal. I know doctors can be bought just like anyone else. I know a lot of doctors in my area that are against the mandate and they are more worried about mutations from the leaky vaccine creating a more dangerous strain.
No, they cannot speak out publicly about this because they want to stay employed.
Only time will tell how this plays out.

Also, before you put all your trust into Fauci (if he is even who you trust) go look up who runs the WHO and see what their credentials are. Then look up who funds the WHO or CDC.
Look up "Fauci AZT treatment", or "Fauci AIDS recommendations"

You also said: "I just cannot understand how people get so off track."

They may just have more information than you. That might be why we have stopped to question why.

[Atropine]

Originally Posted by wbradley

Obesity is a chronic illness. Smoking is an addiction. Both require longterm treatments, that have varied success. They also require the cooperation of the subject.
Covid19 is a worldwide pandemic. Three very different things. If you approached treating Covid19 indirectly by treating obesity and addiction you would end up with more deaths. No point closing the barn door AFTER the horse has already escaped. And should we also make older people younger so they're less susceptible? Or just write them off?

The first 2 are self-inflicted. The last one isn't.

So shouldn't we expect people in the first two groups take more responsibility for their predicament?

Natural immunity> vaccine

About the old people comment: I think the elderly should absolutely get the vaccine and shelter in place. The rest of us have to work and live our lives.

[cjd]

Originally Posted by Atropine

Natural immunity> vaccine

I have seen no evidence of this long term, nor studies stating such. All of the immunities seem to fade. And from Phizer I've only seen that their vaccine is stronger if you've had covid, not that "natural" immunity is stronger on its own.

I've also seen that long term side effects are worse with infection. And that many seen with the vaccine are also prevalent with infection (some of the blood clot issues specifically).
We don't have a clue about the long term results of either, but so far infection is far worse. Will the vaccine turn out to have some? Maybe. It's as different as it is similar to some of the past cancer related efforts and I haven't seen much really comparing those... But of course there are other vaccines options.
This is still a largely moral dilemma if it can be justly called a dilemma. Do we do what's best for the group? It's also very good for us as an individual. The alternative is... worse for the group and probably worse for the individual. That "probably" is the contention, the tenuous thread to which refusers hold.

[Atropine]

Here is a study that says:

natural immunity+vaccine>Natural immunity only>vaccine only

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/art...al-conclusions

Says the natural immunity lasts longer too.

My stance is: if you haven't had COVID, you should strongly consider getting the vaccine, but I respect people's right to choose.
I also think if you have a ton of underlying issues; you should get the vaccine either way.

[wbradley]

Originally Posted by Atropine

The first 2 are self-inflicted. The last one isn't.

So shouldn't we expect people in the first two groups take more responsibility for their predicament?

Natural immunity> vaccine

About the old people comment: I think the elderly should absolutely get the vaccine and shelter in place. The rest of us have to work and live our lives.

No, they shouldn't. Maybe in a world where there is zero understanding of the human condition they should." See, fatty, you couldn't lose the weight and now you're in the hospital clinging to your life. It's YOUR fault! Couldn't fix your lungs after 40 years of smoking? Tough!"


Vaccination> gambling with yours and others lives.


I guess being an antivaxxer is an addiction for some people.

[Capt Spaulding]

Originally Posted by Atropine

There is evidence.

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/s...hicken-viruses

This is from 2015.

This was before the literature was changed in the last 18 months.

Definitions for Herd Immunity and Immunity have literally been changed in the last 18 months.

I can post it if you like.

It is common knowledge in the medical field that leaky vaccines can specifically cause stronger strains.

Same with anti-bacterial soap and people not completing their anitbiotics...Hello MRSA.

You can find a TON of more examples if you want.

I have seem ALL of what you posted and more. It is not vaccines that cause new strains to emerge, it’s evolutionary biology that causes that.

We’ve been here and done this for decades with antibiotics. It’s not just people not completing their courses.

Virtually all vaccines leak. Just as antibiotics are not 100% effective. Some pathogens survive and form the foundations for new strains. You act as if you’ve just discovered this. It is not new. mRNA vaccines have been used for COVID-19 now for over a year. They have made it through phase III testing. And we continue to test them every day.

And even though I would prefer it were different we are all part of a grand natural experiment. It’s being run not by doctors and politicians, but by nature itself. We have by no means seen the end of it. We continue, day after day, to shoot ourselves in the foot. Not accidentally mind you. We are taking careful aim.

The major problem is the absence of civic virtue on the part of a significant portion of the American (primarily) people. The idea that “if it doesn’t directly benefit me, I won’t do it” is poison for democracy. This isn’t about doing one’s own research. That is bullshit. It’s about people searching for misinformation to fuel their paranoid conspiracy theories. It’s about people spreading false “information” to feed those conspiracy theories. It’s about deliberately misleading people. But most of all it’s about selfishness pure and simple. It’s about the death of civic virtue and with it the death of democracy. It really is about something much more dangerous than a virus.

[Atropine]

Originally Posted by Capt Spaulding

I have seem ALL of what you posted and more. It is not vaccines that cause new strains to emerge, it’s evolutionary biology that causes that.

We’ve been here and done this for decades with antibiotics. It’s not just people not completing their courses.

Virtually all vaccines leak. Just as antibiotics are not 100% effective. Some pathogens survive and form the foundations for new strains. You act as if you’ve just discovered this. It is not new. mRNA vaccines have been used for COVID-19 now for over a year. They have made it through phase III testing. And we continue to test them every day.

And even though I would prefer it were different we are all part of a grand natural experiment. It’s being run not by doctors and politicians, but by nature itself. We have by no means seen the end of it. We continue, day after day, to shoot ourselves in the foot. Not accidentally mind you. We are taking careful aim.

The major problem is the absence of civic virtue on the part of a significant portion of the American (primarily) people. The idea that “if it doesn’t directly benefit me, I won’t do it” is poison for democracy. This isn’t about doing one’s own research. That is bullshit. It’s about people searching for misinformation to fuel their paranoid conspiracy theories. It’s about people spreading false “information” to feed those conspiracy theories. It’s about deliberately misleading people. But most of all it’s about selfishness pure and simple. It’s about the death of civic virtue and with it the death of democracy. It really is about something much more dangerous than a virus.

OK, here are more articles stating explicitly that leaky vaccines cause worse strains.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...tudy-suggests/

https://www.healthline.com/health-ne...viruses-072715

Here is a peer reviewed article.

https://journals.plos.org/plosbiolog...l.pbio.1002198

Honest question: How much did you look into this stuff before COVID was a thing? I read these journals for continueing education when they were new 6 years ago for my professional license.
I used these studies for my Thesis for my Master's Degree in Healthcare Admin/Management.

Leaky vaccines absolutely cause worse strains...I repeat. Plese read these man. This isn't about "winning an argument".
We will never meet each other and I don't need to "win".

But the amount of people who spew "this is disinformation because it goes against what i was told to believe" is just frustrating to people who actually know.
This stuff is absolutely in my wheelhouse. In the military I was NBC trained as well.

If you like, I can find you 5 more examples of thise. But if you are just going to put your head in the sand, I cannot do anything about that.

If you want to say "Hey Atropine, i think you are a ****head so I don't want to believe you"...that is fine.

But it doesn't make me less correct on this particular subject.

[Capt Spaulding]

Originally Posted by Atropine

OK, here are more articles stating explicitly that leaky vaccines cause worse strains.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...tudy-suggests/

https://www.healthline.com/health-ne...viruses-072715

Here is a peer reviewed article.

https://journals.plos.org/plosbiolog...l.pbio.1002198

Honest question: How much did you look into this stuff before COVID was a thing? I read these journals for continueing education when they were new 6 years ago for my professional license.
I used these studies for my Thesis for my Master's Degree in Healthcare Admin/Management.

Leaky vaccines absolutely cause worse strains...I repeat. Plese read these man. This isn't about "winning an argument".
We will never meet each other and I don't need to "win".

But the amount of people who spew "this is disinformation because it goes against what i was told to believe" is just frustrating to people who actually know.
This stuff is absolutely in my wheelhouse. In the military I was NBC trained as well.

If you like, I can find you 5 more examples of thise. But if you are just going to put your head in the sand, I cannot do anything about that.

If you want to say "Hey Atropine, i think you are a ****head so I don't want to believe you"...that is fine.

But it doesn't make me less correct on this particular subject.

Look. I know who Andrew Read is. His chicken virus work has been tossed around for years. I don't necessarily disagree with him. But he is essentially saying what I've said repeatedly - evolutionary biology is causing the development of super pathogens. He prefers to focus on what he thinks is the the role of leaky vaccines in the evolutionary process. I simply, and fundamentally reject the hypothesis that vaccines are CAUSING the mutations. The do NOT act on the target pathogens at a genetic level. We may help set the stage, but nature herself changes the virus at the genetic level.

I acknowledge that there is potentially a connection in much the same way that we have been discussing the improper and overuse of antibiotics for decades and the role they play in the development of drug resistant bacteria This is a very dangerous thing and we need to be very careful. Say what you like, THAT is NOT new.

To date, I have not seen any evidence that is happening here. Now, one might argue that perhaps Delta may be the result of this. But I suspect not. Delta emerged in a part of the world that was, for all intents and purposes, unvaccinated. It was, I think, the result of the normal evolution of SARS-Cov2. What evidence do you have that these vaccines are causing mutations in SARS-Cov2 NOW? I don't see any.

What I do see is the normal processes of a pandemic. The more cases that emerge the more chances the virus has to mutate. The fewer cases - the fewer chances to mutate. From a public health perspective more vaccinations result in fewer cases. More vaccinations>fewer cases > fewer mutations (with the side benefit of reduced mortality and morbidity). So, simple arithmetic argues in favor of vaccination globally - not just here.

I read you as arguing that only the most vulnerable should be vaccinated and the rest of the population should go about their normal lives. I strongly disagree. As we have seen with Delta, that population is not as "invulnerable" as many thought they were. Every case they catch provides another opportunity for mutation. Eventually, one of those mutations, or admittedly a mutation from a break through infection will overwhelm existing vaccines and we'll be back to square one. The unvaccinated, though, I see as the immediate problem, not Andrew Read's vaccine related mutagenesis process.

So, I believe you are wrong. I also question your motives here. Little to none of what you have posted in this thread is new. I'm 95% sure you were the one who posted the same (or very similar) arguments in, I think, the first "Vaccination" thread 6-8 months ago. You have rebottled them, and relabeled them but they are, I think, the same wine. Why? Why now?

And I still maintain that the absence of civic virtue is, and will remain, the cause of a majority of our virus related woes going forward and that people such as yourself promote that. The great mystery for me is why you and the rest continue to do it. Are you channeling quacks like Rand Paul, or assholes like Tucker Carlson or Alex Jones? If so you not just wrong, but sinister.

[spike021]

Lol too many nutjobs running loose in this thread.

[Lantanafrs2]

The problem with this discussion is the belief on both sides that they are correct and all knowing and any disagreement constitutes mutiny