A few questions for experienced drivers of this class of car

[Partial Stall]

Hello all, my first post, but I've been lurking for some time now.

First I think it's logical to introduce to you my driving and car history.

I've lived in maine for my entire driving career. My first car was a 1995 mazda protoge manual. It was my college car; a light, nimble little fox willing to escape from my driveway even during -20 degree weather. After putting around 100k miles on an already used car, I decided to trade up in 2004 for something of the same type: a brand new nissan sentra.

Although the same size and owned many features analogous to my protoge, the nessan had more power and handled much better. This car was the one that told me "Hey dude, you really like driving cars." I was about 23 or 24 at the time, but I still wasn't making enough to buy something over 25k.

In 2007 I was perfectly happy driving my little black nissan, untill in 2007 I got a glimpse of my friend's new honda civic Si. He actually let me drive it, and I fell in love. It the perfect marrage for someone who had been craving a neater, tighter, and faster car for over five years at that point. With 197 horses and a vastly improved suspention over my nissan, driving the Si through maine's curvy back roads was like touching the glorious parts of a female's anatomy for the first time.

Two weeks later, I bought my own Si. A blue one at that. Banging the vtec at 7000 rpm through the notch never felt so damn good. Again, a front wheel drive car, at this point I've driven nothing but.

In 2007 I also got a better job, and like taking a shot of heron for the first time....I needed more. I had the money to do it, but what would I get?!

After doing alot of research I was going to go AWD. Evo or STi. This was 2008 and the new X just came out. I needed it the first time I saw it, and after I test drove it, I already knew that one would be sitting in my driveway by weeks end. So I got one. Spent about 33k on it for the SSS package, red evo. Now four years later I still love the damn thing to tears. It was 78 degrees yesturday here, but I still have the blizzacks on. The thing just eats the winters here for lunch. Obviously, there are some caveats. Like any car AWD, advanced technology doesn't help you stop in the cold of winter, and the car behaved mostly like a brick of iron if your stupid and brake at the apex of a curve....again like any car.

All in all the evo is great, but the BRZ....well I've only tested drving a few RWD cars. The synergy of a small compact car with 200 hp, low CoG and RWD sounds like a TOTALLY different driving experience than AWD or FWD. I'm in the mood now to change my driving experience

I want to feel every aspect of the road. I want my inputs to count. I want to become a better driver.

So this post is a bit longer than I thought it would turn out, and there is so much more to say, but I will digress.

1) Does anyone have experience with AWD and RWD? If I decide to get the BRZ, what can I expect from the way it handles, and what can I do to improve my RWD skills without smashing into a curb sideways.

2)With cars already out there like the s2000, how do they feel on the highway? I ask this because I cruise on rt 95 for about 3 hours every weekend. The evo here is pretty bad. It needs a sixth gear and puts out a racket going 79-80 mph (4000 RPMs in 5th). The ride on the evo is not great, but I have gotten used to it, and when i drive my mom's boat I get hella car sick now haha.

3)Winter driving. I know it has been discussed here already. I will put blizzacks on the BRZ...but going from an evo to brz in the winter is like going from a plow truck to a go cart.

Thanks all for your patience!

[Turbowned]

1. Yes. I love both for different reasons. RWD is the most fun but powerful AWD cars will usually win out for all-out performance because they have the most mechanical grip. The BRZ will feel light and tossable, not unlike the Civic but once you go overboard with throttle input, it will turn from light understeer into controllable oversteer (if you know how to control it). Get some practice!

2. The BRZ may not feel completely rock-solid on the highway, but not having driven a BRZ on the highway (or at all) I can't really confirm. I drive a 3800lb Audi; nothing feels as solid by comparison! I never had any complaints with my MR2 Turbo, RX-7 Turbo, or BMW 325i in that weight range. My 2300lb MR2 with a quick manual steering rack was a little twitchy, but manageable. The BRZ is supposedly very quiet on the inside, according to the Subaru rep who was touring New England with one - 6th gear should eliminate highway drone.

3. Read this thread: http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4479 and watch the videos. Remember to get some practice in an empty parking lot and use gentle, controlled inputs. Brake early and go easy on the accelerator. Remember the wheels can only do up to 100% of one thing at a time: braking, steering, accelerating. You can't turn well with the brakes locked up (even though ABS will intervene), nor can you accelerate well with the wheels turned at full lock.

Hope this helps!

[Draco-REX]

My car history spans a large number of low and high power RWD cars and a good stable of AWD cars with a couple FWD cars in the beginning. The majority of my RWD cars were driven in New England around eastern MA.

I currently own an STI, competitively race a WRX off road, and have a Legacy for a daily that I plan to trade for the BRZ.

Originally Posted by Partial Stall

1) Does anyone have experience with AWD and RWD? If I decide to get the BRZ, what can I expect from the way it handles, and what can I do to improve my RWD skills without smashing into a curb sideways.

The steering is going to be very responsive. The lack of weight in front of the front wheels and quick rack will communicate your inputs very well. AWD and FWD cars tend to be very nose-heavy. So it takes a bit of effort to move that lump out of line and start a turn. The Evo has a pretty quick rack, I think about as quick as the BRZ. So that should feel familiar. But compared to your past cars, the BRZ's nose is going to feel like it weighs nothing and can be aimed anywhere with a flick of your wrists.

Corner entry will be more responsive because of this, you'll have less understeer initially. Mid-corner will take more throttle control than you would need in your Evo however. Too much and the rear will begin to step out going into oversteer, whereas in an AWD or FWD car the same over power will result in the nose sliding outwards. The good news is that, by all reports, the BRZ is very predictable and calm when the rear begins to go. You won't have to worry too much about "Snap oversteer"

Controlling a slide will be a little bit different and will take some practice to get down. In an AWD or FWD car, if you're in an oversteer condition, you can just stand on the throttle to get the car to stabilize. In a RWD car it will depend on the angle of the slide. A narrow slide, you can just lift and the rears will grab hold and bring the car in line. In a higher angle slide, if you lift the car may snap back around the other direction, in which case applying gentle throttle and countersteering is the way out of the slide. Practice will let you know what the BRZ prefers. I have to admit that I haven't driven a RWD car as well balanced as the BRZ, so I will have some experimenting to do as well.

2)With cars already out there like the s2000, how do they feel on the highway? I ask this because I cruise on rt 95 for about 3 hours every weekend. The evo here is pretty bad. It needs a sixth gear and puts out a racket going 79-80 mph (4000 RPMs in 5th). The ride on the evo is not great, but I have gotten used to it, and when i drive my mom's boat I get hella car sick now haha.

I believe the BRZ will cruise at 75 around 3000-3200rpm. Compared to my past Subarus, that should be fine. Unless you get an obnoxiously loud exhaust, it should be comfortable.

3)Winter driving. I know it has been discussed here already. I will put blizzacks on the BRZ...but going from an evo to brz in the winter is like going from a plow truck to a go cart.

Thanks all for your patience!

The BRZ will feel more like your Evo than your FWD cars. It won't get going as easily as either, but when it comes to changing direction, it will be similar to the AWD car you've had. You'll be able to use your right foot to help change direction with a good degree of control.

You will have to lean good throttle control. Just like braking, your maximum acelleration will be right at the edge of grip. So you'll have to get used to using the gears and your right foot to control how much torque gets to the rear wheels. Roads should be no problem for the BRZ, the LSD in the back will make things a lot easier. You'll likely find that hills can be conquered with traction control shut off and heavy application of your right foot.

The greatest weakness to a RWD car is unpacked snow. FWD and AWD cars can use the engine's torque to compact the snow under the tires. A RWD car has to push the front wheels through the unpacked snow. Because of this, you may find it easier to go up a fresh hill in reverse.

But don't worry too much. It takes some practice, but once you get the hang of a RWD in the snow, it's a lot of fun and not that bad. In 2005 or 2006 there was a heavy snowfall in Plymouth MA, hitting 10 inches in a few hours. I drove through that with no problem in my '87 Corolla that was RWD, had an open rear diff, and all-seasons. You'll do fine.

As far as tire selection goes, if you tend to have snowy winters, a good winter tires like a Blizzak in a 205 width will likely be a good choice for the BRZ.

Hope this helps.

[madfast]

car and driver chose the evo X as the best handling car under 40k last year. i dont expect the FRS/BRZ to exceed its handling by much, if at all. the only thing that is a given, is the much lighter weight (2700 vs 3500).

for me, its a wait and see approach. i know already that i cannot go from an evo to the FRS/BRZ stock. i will be disappointed with its speed. i will patiently wait until the aftermarket takes care of things and/or a TRD/STI version comes out. as much as people here romanticize "handling" and all that good stuff, at the end of the day, FOR ME, speed/acceleration/hp/tq/etc. is also a very big part of what makes a car "fun". i want a total package, so i will patiently wait until the FRS/BRZ gets there. until then, my evo puts a big enough smile on my face

[Draco-REX]

Originally Posted by madfast

car and driver chose the evo X as the best handling car under 40k last year. i dont expect the FRS/BRZ to exceed its handling by much, if at all. the only thing that is a given, is the much lighter weight (2700 vs 3500).

for me, its a wait and see approach. i know already that i cannot go from an evo to the FRS/BRZ stock. i will be disappointed with its speed. i will patiently wait until the aftermarket takes care of things and/or a TRD/STI version comes out. as much as people here romanticize "handling" and all that good stuff, at the end of the day, FOR ME, speed/acceleration/hp/tq/etc. is also a very big part of what makes a car "fun". i want a total package, so i will patiently wait until the FRS/BRZ gets there. until then, my evo puts a big enough smile on my face

This thread is about the differences in the handling and behavior that he may encounter. There are plenty of other threads about the BRZ in relation to other cars that point out the differences in power. Let's not derail this thread into another BRZ Vs. ____ thread.

[madfast]

Originally Posted by Draco-REX

This thread is about the differences in the handling and behavior that he may encounter. There are plenty of other threads about the BRZ in relation to other cars that point out the differences in power. Let's not derail this thread into another BRZ Vs. ____ thread.

Jeez...

i wasnt trying to go off topic. the evo handles great. it understeers, but the AYC makes it MUCH better than a traditional AWD car. so my main point is that, if he expects the FRS/BRZ to handle much, much better than the evo, he will probably be disappointed.

[Partial Stall]

Thank you all for the very insightful replies.

With question two regarding highway driving: I think my question was more about stability. There are some patches of highway here that like to grab the tires out of no where. When your listening to music and in a hypnotic state, a sudden jolt from the tires is more than annoying. I understand some of this grab is related to the type of tires used. Do you think the smaller tires of the BRZ will combat highway grab better?

I love some of the great comparisons between AWD and RWD performance. I think what i really need is to simply get into the BRZ and find an open parking lot somewhere. I need to know how the car reacts, and when I do it will inspire much more confidance.

Madfest, I apperciate your take on the power issue. It's on my mind as well, and I'm not trying to bash the evo in anyway, but lets face it: the car drives itself. You could put a monkey at the wheel of an evo and make good track times. I'm a thinking man, and require constant stimulation to keep me inpressed. Do i respect the evo for its abilites? Yes. Is it fun to drive? Yes. Does it make me think about how I will take a 25 mph rated corner at 60? No. I just smash through the damn thing and watch the pretty AWS lights come on

I wonder about how the BRZ will feel under lateral and straight line acceleration. Being RWD, your being pushed by the rear tires. In the evo and using the "TARMAC" setting, 70% of the power is diverted to the rear so I bet it feels about the same. Lateral acceleration, or gforce will probably feel divergent to my evo experience. I'm intereted in finding out

[Turbowned]

Originally Posted by Partial Stall

With question two regarding highway driving: I think my question was more about stability. There are some patches of highway here that like to grab the tires out of no where. When your listening to music and in a hypnotic state, a sudden jolt from the tires is more than annoying. I understand some of this grab is related to the type of tires used. Do you think the smaller tires of the BRZ will combat highway grab better?

Yes, absolutely. I switched from the stock 185-width all-seasons on my MR2 to 225-width max-performance summer tires, and all-of-a-sudden every bump in the road was trying to pull me into oblivion. These tires should definitely keep the car tracking straight at the expense of all-out cornering grip. They should also be pretty good in the rain too, if I had to guess.

[DEC1]

I've done all three types of drive...and as pointed out they all have their own attributes. I had a G37 coupe (rwd) and traded it for a G37 sedan (awd) and have regretted it ever since (boring and inefficient). I've had the same set of Blizzaks on both cars and I drive a long way in snowy MA winters (discounting this past winter that wasn't) I got everywhere I needed to go in both cars...although the rwd coupe required a bit more patience and attention.
You don't want to go back to fwd (had 04 TSX) once you've had one or the other two...like Draco said...heavy nose...wierd handling.
I'm going back to rwd with the BRZ (if the freaking thing ever gets here) that should tell you a lot considering my past history and experience.

[BMWDavid]

Originally Posted by Partial Stall

Thank you all for the very insightful replies.

With question two regarding highway driving: I think my question was more about stability. There are some patches of highway here that like to grab the tires out of no where. When your listening to music and in a hypnotic state, a sudden jolt from the tires is more than annoying. I understand some of this grab is related to the type of tires used. Do you think the smaller tires of the BRZ will combat highway grab better?

I love some of the great comparisons between AWD and RWD performance. I think what i really need is to simply get into the BRZ and find an open parking lot somewhere. I need to know how the car reacts, and when I do it will inspire much more confidance.

Madfest, I apperciate your take on the power issue. It's on my mind as well, and I'm not trying to bash the evo in anyway, but lets face it: the car drives itself. You could put a monkey at the wheel of an evo and make good track times. I'm a thinking man, and require constant stimulation to keep me inpressed. Do i respect the evo for its abilites? Yes. Is it fun to drive? Yes. Does it make me think about how I will take a 25 mph rated corner at 60? No. I just smash through the damn thing and watch the pretty AWS lights come on

I wonder about how the BRZ will feel under lateral and straight line acceleration. Being RWD, your being pushed by the rear tires. In the evo and using the "TARMAC" setting, 70% of the power is diverted to the rear so I bet it feels about the same. Lateral acceleration, or gforce will probably feel divergent to my evo experience. I'm intereted in finding out

This is called tramling and is quite pronounced on some cars over others. Wider tires can make this more noticable, but in anycase it is quite annoying when it happens.

The feel on straight line acceleration is not going to be much of an issue with 200 HP. Should not be any tail wagging unless on slick surface.

I recently drove a Z06 and that car is plently twitchy on straight line acceleration, the rear end is always trying to slip a bit side to side but is fun! With lateral/cornering really exciting as you apply gas and transistion into power sliding at will.

[M-17]

Originally Posted by DEC1

I've done all three types of drive...and as pointed out they all have their own attributes. I had a G37 coupe (rwd) and traded it for a G37 sedan (awd) and have regretted it ever since (boring and inefficient). I've had the same set of Blizzaks on both cars and I drive a long way in snowy MA winters (discounting this past winter that wasn't) I got everywhere I needed to go in both cars...although the rwd coupe required a bit more patience and attention.
You don't want to go back to fwd (had 04 TSX) once you've had one or the other two...like Draco said...heavy nose...wierd handling.
I'm going back to rwd with the BRZ (if the freaking thing ever gets here) that should tell you a lot considering my past history and experience.

I almost bought a G37 rwd coupe, but for some reason I didn't like the drive. It wasn't what I was expecting for nice car that it is.

[Draco-REX]

Originally Posted by Partial Stall

With question two regarding highway driving: I think my question was more about stability. There are some patches of highway here that like to grab the tires out of no where. When your listening to music and in a hypnotic state, a sudden jolt from the tires is more than annoying. I understand some of this grab is related to the type of tires used. Do you think the smaller tires of the BRZ will combat highway grab better?

As above, tramlining is hard to predict. Just different tire models can change how badly a car tramlines. Likely the narrow stock tires on the BRZ will resist tramlining. Going to wider, stickier tires may cause some to occur though.

I love some of the great comparisons between AWD and RWD performance. I think what i really need is to simply get into the BRZ and find an open parking lot somewhere. I need to know how the car reacts, and when I do it will inspire much more confidance.

Go to AutoX events. Absolutely the best way to learn about handling your car at the limit. The New England Region of the SCCA is pretty active. I'm sure they will have events within an hour or two of you.

If you have any questions about getting started with AutoX, PM me, I'll help you out. I even know a few of the NER RallyX guys.

I wonder about how the BRZ will feel under lateral and straight line acceleration. Being RWD, your being pushed by the rear tires. In the evo and using the "TARMAC" setting, 70% of the power is diverted to the rear so I bet it feels about the same. Lateral acceleration, or gforce will probably feel divergent to my evo experience. I'm intereted in finding out

Straight line will be very similar once you get moving. The linitial launch may feel a little odd with the rear of the car moving to one side or the other. But with only 151tq on tap, you won't burn the tires all that much, so drift at launch will be minimal. Once you get going, it'll feel the same.

Lateral forces will feel slightly different, but it'll be tough to put into words. With a car that's nose heavy like the Evo, it feels like the nose is leading the rest of the car around. With the BRZ, that feeling is going to feel like it's originating around the middle of the car.

[dookie11]

This is the only thing I got from the OP: " Banging the vtec."

[swift996]

I've driven many platforms and have owned 13 cars now. From what I read in the reviews I think this car will be pretty close to feeling like a RX8.

I would recommend buying this book if you're serious in learning more about driving and getting the most out of your car.
http://www.amazon.com/Ultimate-Speed...ref=pd_sim_b_1