Supercharger Comparison: Innovate, Jackson, Kraftwerks, Vortech *Updated March 9 2014

[ramiram1984]

Originally Posted by ATL BRZ

The beauty of the JR kit is in the details.

Price: low and competitive

Power delivery: smooth, linear and predictable. Perfect for the track.

Simplicity/fitment: Excellent.

**Intake air temperatures when tracked**: relatively low, the SC doesn't heat soak like the non-intercooled Innovate and completely overwhelm the stock cooling system like a turbo does after a few hard laps.

CARB legality: JR is the only Rotrex kit so far with this status.

He's an innovate guy. He doesn't like tracking and he'll be staying under 4k rpms and hardly ever redline... At least what shaunsweeney sayin'

[Dezoris]

Like the stock car, take different drivers and you get different rusults as much as 5 seconds on a 2 minute track. Or up to 2 seconds in an autox.

Add FI, throw tuning in the mix and results vary. The fact that Mike did a Rotrex kit and is posting results is good. We have beaten a dead horse over Vortech and Innovate already

I hope people don't expect a huge difference between all of them?

[tendogy]

Hello all. I made these charts and have been waiting for my account to activate so I could pop in and say hello.

First of all, thank you CSG_Mike for posting them here. This forum is the definitive conversation for the FT86 community, and I am glad that my work has generated so much discussion.

Secondly, thank you to everyone who said kind words about the analysis. Between here and reddit I have had many many people offer very deep thanks, and it is very encouraging to know that my work has met a big informational need for a lot of people.

Thirdly, I want to address some comments and criticisms towards the source material. As I said, this forum is the definitive conversation for the FT86 community, but the conversation is not friendly towards FT86 owners attempting to choose the best FI kit for their car. You have seen threads where someone asks for comparison information and they are always told (1) this has been asked before and (2) use search to find your answers.

The goal of this work was to compile and analyze the available powerband information in this forum. I am trying to choose a supercharger kit for my car, I am interested in these 4 kits, so I hunted the forums to find the most comparable dynos I could.

The information is inherently incomplete and inherently flawed because they are different cars on different dynos, but I am confident it is the best comparison information available for these kits at this time.

I will address specific comments in a moment, but I want to broadly say up front that there is a bizarre lack of available Innovate dynos in this forum.

Originally Posted by DJCarbine

Would be interesting to see a smaller pulley on the vortech

I agree! If you (are anyone) would post a link to a dynojet graph using a smaller pulley on a vortech kit, preferably with 91 or 92 octane, I would love to add it to my research.

Originally Posted by xjohnx

as with anything, I'd take this with a grain of salt as it's comparing everything from cars with stock exhaust/cats to cars with full exhaust/no cats, catbacks, etc. I can only assume based on the variances in modifications on the cars, that there were also different dynos used as well (Even if they're all on dynojets, were they all on the same dynojet? I've seen numbers vary as much as 10hp on the same day between two different dynojets on the same car)

Absolutely. This analysis best demonstrates the characteristics of the powerbands, and its direct comparison of total power output needs a grain of salt for sure.

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

At first I was going to say it's unfair putting the JRSC in there with full catless exhaust, but it looks like there's not much difference between its results and (the similar unit) Kraftwerks SC with 2 cats and CBE. Not sure what to make of that.

This was my exact thought process. The comparison is not so much Kraftwerks vs Jackson as it is Rotrex + 2 cats vs Rotrex + Zero cats. There is not a lot of difference there.

Originally Posted by sw20kosh

The [stock innovate graph] is my car which at the time had smaller 70 mm pulley, no intercooler, header and full catless exhaust.

I did not realize that at all. Other kits had header + full catless exhaust, but I have no idea how much a stock pulley would make on a dynojet because there isn't a single available plot of it from a dyno jet on pump gas.

Originally Posted by sw20kosh

That intercooled innovate plot is from innovate itself so it is a canned tune.

It is indeed from Innovate, but I'm not convinced it's the canned tune, and that's for two reasons. First, it is a dynojet plot and all of Innovate's other plots have been non-dynojet. Second, I could not find a single intercooled dynojet plot (canned or otherwise) from a customer to use for comparison.

Robftss posted a "canned tune plot" without linking a source. It shows -33 HP peak HP to the one I used. If that's true, then the one I used is definitely not CARB.

It might be the canned tune, it might not, but either way I would be happy to update my graphs and such if someone directed me to a custom-tuned dynojet plot of an intercooled innovate kit on pump gas.

Robftss has posted a "canned tune" dynojet plot (without sourcing), and it shows -33 peak HP to this one.

Originally Posted by swift996

too bad we can't get a apples to apples comparison (same mods)

It really is.

Originally Posted by Sellout

Over and over again, in this thread and others, the CARB innovate tune is being compared to custom tunes for the centrifugals.

Take off your foil hat buddy, there's no conspiracy, there's just a lack of Innovate dynos. Robftss posted a "CARB plot" without linking a source (post 60 of this thread). It shows -33 HP peak HP to the one I used. If that's true, then the one I used is definitely not CARB. I slogged through every page of that Innovate owner's thread and found the best one I could. I would be delighted for anyone to provide me with a verified intercooled dynojet plot using a custom tune on pump gas.

Originally Posted by Sellout

Everyone wants to ignore the fact that the centrifugal CARB kits don't make any more power than the Intercooled Innovate CARB tune. Disingenuous at best, IMO.

No one is ignoring that. This is a comparison between custom tunes, not CARB tunes. I feel pretty confident that I used a non-CARB plot for innovate intercooled, but if I didn't then it was only for lack of availability.

Originally Posted by Sellout

These kits ALL make ~245 RWHP Dynojet on their CARB tunes.

Well that's just not true. The Innovate CARB tune posted by Robftss makes 211 RWHP peak and the Jackson makes 243 RWHP. Even if you factor in the 7HP difference in the stock plots they show, that's still a 25HP difference.

Originally Posted by Sellout

And then we compare an early non intercooled Innovate dyno to the CARB tune for the JR kit?

Find me a better non-intercooled innovate dyno, and I'll use it. The JR kit was not CARB.

[Brian@Vortech]

A lot of very useful info in this thread. Recognition must be given for the effort in compiling it all.

Question though - Do the JR & KW kits really make 10.8 & 11.9 psi out of the box on tunes designed for 91 octane? Just curious. If so, I was not aware of that. All the preliminary stuff I saw stated they were going to be running 7-9 just like everyone else.

[tendogy]

In case anyone is interested in an analysis of Jackson CARB powerband against the Innovate Intercooled CARB powerband, here it is:

This is the Innovate IC CARB HP plot along with its Stock HP reference. The two are plotted here, and shown with their Area-Under-Curve numbers.



This is the Jackson CARB HP plot along with its Stock HP reference. The two are plotted here, and shown with their Area-Under-Curve numbers.



And here is the percentage-increase-over-stock comparison for the segmented powerband.



And what if you add up all the powerband numbers? They come out exactly the same.

Over the entire powerband, the Jackson CARB dyno and the Innovate IC CARB dyno both show a 25% increase of HP over stock. It's just distributed differently.

[tendogy]

Originally Posted by Brian@Vortech

Do the JR & KW kits really make 10.8 & 11.9 psi out of the box on tunes designed for 91 octane?

Both of those dynos are custom tunes designed for 92 octane.

[mit_peid]

@tendogy, have you checked out MotoIQ's Innovate S/C w/ Intercooler?

http://www.motoiq.com/MagazineArticl...torsports.aspx

[tendogy]

I did just now! It's not very useful within the scope of this analysis though, because it is not dynojet, it doesn't have a stock reference line on the dyno, I don't know what exhaust mods are supporting the kit, and I don't know what octane fuel the car is running.

It does look like it's making about 30HP over their non-intercooled baseline, and my analysis was showing +25HP from the intercooler so I feel good about that.

[wrxgoose]

Originally Posted by tendogy;1455304[quote

Find me a better non-intercooled innovate dyno, and I'll use it. The JR kit was not CARB.

first off, welcome. secondly, damned impressive first post, hopefully you can keep up your head of steam with other posts.

As to the quote, I'll have a non-ic innovate dynojet chart for you this weekend (75mm) that you can use.

[swift996]

Originally Posted by tendogy

I did just now! It's not very useful within the scope of this analysis though, because it is not dynojet, it doesn't have a stock reference line on the dyno, I don't know what exhaust mods are supporting the kit, and I don't know what octane fuel the car is running.

It does look like it's making about 30HP over their non-intercooled baseline, and my analysis was showing +25HP from the intercooler so I feel good about that.

FYI - There's a forced-induction dyno thread. It has a few other dynos in there but I think you got the most reliable data in your analysis.
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=42290

[Brian@Vortech]

Originally Posted by tendogy

Both of those dynos are custom tunes designed for 92 octane.

But are the pulleys stock size, or had they (or the redline) been changed? Just trying to see how they are making those boost # listed when they are rated from the manufacturers at a lower boost output. KW states 9 psi, and JR (I believe) had stated even lower for their systems on stock pulleys.

[CSG Mike]

I believe we were seeing just about 9 psi on the dyno at redline, but PSI is a moot figure. I'm more concerned with the mass of air being moved, not the pressure it's being moved at.

I can force air through a coffee stirrer at 50 psi, and it's still not going to move as much air as a normal straw at 5 psi.

Likewise, a GT28 at 15 psi will not move as much air as a GT42 at 5 psi.

PSI shouldn't be being used as a measurement of how much power will be gained. It's a unit of pressure, but the pressure of the air going into the engine doesn't determine output. Mass does.

I've not yet had a chance to ever actually experience a Kraftwerks kit in person or on the dyno, so I have no idea what it actually boosts.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by tendogy

I did just now! It's not very useful within the scope of this analysis though, because it is not dynojet, it doesn't have a stock reference line on the dyno, I don't know what exhaust mods are supporting the kit, and I don't know what octane fuel the car is running.

It does look like it's making about 30HP over their non-intercooled baseline, and my analysis was showing +25HP from the intercooler so I feel good about that.

The MotoIQ car is in California; I'd assume it's on CA 91 octane.

[swift996]

@tendogy

Perhaps you can use software like this:
http://www.datazap.me/u/swift996/test-log?log=0&data=6

Something where people could click the different inputs and chart side by side. I think it's a great effort but people are always going to have but what about x pulley size and x gas and x whatever.