Forza 3 vs. GT5 Discussion Thread

[Snaps]

Well, after startng a debate in the GT5 FT86 Photo thread, I thought I may as well bring it here for everyone to discuss without going off-topic.

My reply continuing from the (current) end of that thread:

Originally Posted by ichitaka05

What? Can't put VH45DETT in 240z? Microsft, you lost a customer

I didn't say you couldn't... I said I don't know if you can or not.

Originally Posted by Dimman

Disappointed in many ways? I can say there are some nits that I pick at, but it's really only because they are contrasted with how good everything else is. (Another nit-pick in GT5: interior view steering is fail. Compare how many turns the wheel takes lock to lock with Midnight Club LA...)

As I said, the people I know were expecting more from Polyphony and GT5, they were disappointed.

Originally Posted by Dimman

I have a 360 and a PS3. I bought Forza 2 as an in-between while waiting for GT5. But after a bit of play, I found myself playing GT4 on the PS2 more. The Forza 2 vs GT4 shouldn't be a fair comparison as we are talking about two different system generations. But I still feel the physics in GT4 are better than Forza 2.

I disagree, I think the physics are better in Forza 2, GT4 feels like the cars are driving on glass, and while I don't think FM2 is anywhere near right, it's sure as hell a lot better.

Originally Posted by Dimman

And they took 3 freakin' games to put a 1JZ in a Supra?

Fair enough point, can't argue there!

Originally Posted by Dimman

Part of the delays and the 'incomplete' nature of the game is a testament to kaizen, how they will continue towards perfection. They are testing real cars to get them as close as possible. And as they continue to test they will continue to improve GT5.

And that is freakin' awesome.

Once again, fair enough, but they should have at least released a game that was of a reasonable standard to start with. GT5 is lacking so much in some area's it's just not funny.

Originally Posted by Dragonitti

If Turn10 sent drivers to test tracks, then the tracks would be closer to real thing than they are.

How do I know which is right? BHAHAHAHAHA! It's apparent you haven't seen any of the videos comparing GT games to the real life counter parts.

Forza is NOTHING like that in realism man.

Apart from the Graphical differences I see very little difference in the track layout between GT5 and Forza (and believe me, I've played the Nurburgring MANY times, it is my favourite track).

Originally Posted by Dragonitti

Sorry, I'm not a "don't release it yet then" person. I am a "I want to play NOW. Send me the crap when you get it" person. And I enjoy playing now. If they waited more, the complaint would be...."It's taking to long"...so, there is no win-win situation with that.

I'm of the other opinion, I don't want to be sold a Sony 1080P HDTV and then be told I can't use the 1080P definition until I get sent a part three months from when I bought the damn TV... I would move onto another brand before I'd EVER do something like that.

Originally Posted by Dragonitti

Forza3 is like 9GB DVD layer or something like that.

GT5 is Dual Layer Blue Ray...it installs like 8GB onto the HDD alone. It's about 3 times larger than FM3 in content. It runs in 1080P with 60frps.

Your point? Pokemon Crystal on the Gameboy Advance is saved onto a VERY small memory cartridge, yet it is still an immensly better game than -for example - Lego Batman. There are other examples I could use here, but I'm just using the first one I can think of. All I'm saying is that the size of content on a disc doesn't neccessarily translate to a great game.

Originally Posted by Dragonitti

They work closely with Manufactures I'm pretty sure about that. They also visit SEMA and hand awards to custom car builders to which they then model those cars and include them in the game (i.e. HighEnd's G37).

I'm sure the team at Turn 10 does too... Not the awards, but I'm sure they spend time with manufacturers.

Originally Posted by Dragonitti

Those are not rare cars. When I say rare, I'm talking Miura Lamborghini rare.

Once again, I know you don't have FM3, but you need to stop comparing GT5 to FM2. FM3 is so far ahead of FM2 and so much closer to GT5 that you should be using that as a comparison.

FM3 has the Miura.

Originally Posted by Dragonitti

Again, read the specs. 500k polygons in GT5. FM3 is like 170k and then it drops to like 40k during gameplay.

500K for the Premium cars, right? What about the standard cars, which make up 80% of the game's cars?

Originally Posted by Dragonitti

Count me as a person Not disappointed.

I already do

[BoostJunkie]

You know my take, forza FTW

[chulooz]

I am fan of FM3, especially after all of the hype around GT5. Just getting on the track in that game takes forever, not really sure I like their rendition of 'realistic' when it comes to road feel either.

[Dragonitti]

Originally Posted by Snaps

Apart from the Graphical differences I see very little difference in the track layout between GT5 and Forza (and believe me, I've played the Nurburgring MANY times, it is my favourite track).

You can't be serious bro. NO WAY you have played GT5 or even 4 enough to say that the Nurburg is as close to the same layout. It's not close at all man.

Originally Posted by Snaps

I'm of the other opinion, I don't want to be sold a Sony 1080P HDTV and then be told I can't use the 1080P definition until I get sent a part three months from when I bought the damn TV... I would move onto another brand before I'd EVER do something like that.

Not the equivalent sorry. GT5 would not be a 1080p TV without 1080p. Car customization is a gimmick not the core feature of a racing simulator. It's the core feature of a Racing Game, not a racing simulator. Thus why Forza is a Racing Game and not a SIM. It looks to entertain first rather than create something above entertainment. GT5 looks to immerse you into the car world and brings the passion of automotive world and racing to you. If you don't get that sense, then you simply haven't played GT long enough or looked to much into it.

The APEX guide that came with GT5 Collectors Edition....has real wold driving techniques in it like Heel-toe downshift, driving lines, driving lines for double apexes....etc. The equivalent of a FM3 guide like that does not exists and if it did, it probably would tell you how to merge colors together with different graphics...lol.

Originally Posted by Snaps

Your point? Pokemon Crystal on the Gameboy Advance is saved onto a VERY small memory cartridge, yet it is still an immensly better game than -for example - Lego Batman. There are other examples I could use here, but I'm just using the first one I can think of. All I'm saying is that the size of content on a disc doesn't neccessarily translate to a great game.

My point is the size of GT is nearly 3 times larger than Forza3. Obviously development time it takes to make GT is not going to be cranked out in the same amount of time it took to make a lower quality game like FM3.

FM3 has the customization. GT5 has realism, physics, road surface feel, rare cars, real world accuracy of the race tracks...etc.

I'll take realism over customization any day. NFS does customization, FM does customization, neither do realism. GT is the only Console game that's a racing simulator. I road race in real life, it's what I'm into. Thus why I'm a GT player and not a Forza player. I can't get past the cartoon colors of Forza. It's like driving a comic book.

And if you come back and say FM3 is realistic in physics as GT5, then I'll have to simply laugh and tell you to go play GT5 without the bandaids "cough" driver aids, which can't be disabled in FM3. FM has been commented as "cars feel like they are floating on the surface".

Originally Posted by Snaps

I'm sure the team at Turn 10 does too... Not the awards, but I'm sure they spend time with manufacturers.



Once again, I know you don't have FM3, but you need to stop comparing GT5 to FM2. FM3 is so far ahead of FM2 and so much closer to GT5 that you should be using that as a comparison.

FM3 has the Miura.

My brother-in-law has an Xbox360 and has FM3. I don't need to own it when he lives only 5 mins away from me. The Miura was an example, we don't want to get into number of cars cause you know that answer already. I didn't compare GT5 to FM2 when I said that.

Originally Posted by Snaps

500K for the Premium cars, right? What about the standard cars, which make up 80% of the game's cars?



I already do

Yes 500k polygons for Premium cars. When you compare the Standard cars during Game play, they look like FM3 cars during game play. FM3 cars outside of game play look better than Standard GT5 cars outside of game play...why...because you can't get Standard cars in Photomode in GT5. And when it comes to photomode, FM3 ramps up the graphics just like GT5 does.

When it comes to IN-GAME play....GT5 Premium cars > FM3 and when it comes to Photomode, GT5 Premium cars > FM3.

When it comes to IN-GAME play.....GT5 Standard cars = FM3 and when it comes to Photomode, FM3 > GT5 standard cars...since you can't do a photomode travel with GT5 standard cars (you can do an in-game race photo of standard cars).

[Dragonitti]

Even GT5 Prologue's Poly count is higher than FM3.

GT5P has 200k per car.

[Dragonitti]

Seriously....dude, no bias.

Pay particular attention the the degrees of the corners, the Distance between corners, the camber angle of the corners, the elevation changes in the track. Heck even down to the WIDTH of the track itself. You can't compare the road surface "feel" unless you play it with a steering wheel so can't really add that as something you need to judge. But take into consideration of the rest points made.

I will lay out 3 vids for you to compare who got it right.

Real Life ZR1 lap at Nurburgring

Zonda at Nurburgring in FM3

Nurburgring in GT5 from a Mercedes AMG



Now an overlay comparison video:

GT5 vs Real life

I'm still looking for an equivalent video for FM3 to real life but haven't found one like the GT5 vs Real life one. Only thing I could find is some guy making a video about how FM3's version of Nurburgring is to long and longer than real life version.

The advantage is that Kazanori has driven the Nurburgring in real life and has competed on it in a 24hr race. Turn10 does not do that, thus it shows in their in accuracy to detail. I would have never thought though it translated into in accuracy in their cars though. Figured they would at least get that part right, but to my dismay.

They ramp up colors in FM3 and make it pretty. Where GT5 the colors are not that lively....real world colors when you stop and look are not colored up like a doctored photo. Or when you are viewing out your front windshield while driving, everything is not extra lighted or colored up to it's most radiant. I don't like that about FM3, all the colors are radiant and bright to the point it looks doctored up and comic book feeling. But at the same time, it's an Arcade game rather than a SIM so that's what they do.


PS....they don't even get the Sign's on the bridges and the bridges themselves modeled correctly in FM3....tisk tisk. I'm not saying that FM3 sucks don't get me wrong. It caters to a different segment of racers that's all.

[Dragonitti]

The Lambo in this vid on the FM3 side looks like a Standard car in GT5.

I'm pretty sure the Poly count of GT5 Standard cars is the same as FM3's cars during game play. Premium GT5 cars though are 500k polys...super exceeding FM3's.

The 200 Premium car list will grow with a DLC in a few days. GT5 is trying to make the standard of 1080P @ 60fps the goal at the same time shadows suffer because they are "dynamic".

People who only look at GT5 at Surface value don't appreciate it because that's all they are looking at...."Surface value". I appreciate what they are trying to Accomplish. They are trying to push the envelope further on a console, which is the closest thing to more hardcore SIMS you find on PCs.

[Snaps]

Originally Posted by BoostJunkie

You know my take, forza FTW

Originally Posted by chulooz

I am fan of FM3, especially after all of the hype around GT5. Just getting on the track in that game takes forever, not really sure I like their rendition of 'realistic' when it comes to road feel either.

Thanks guys... Good to know other people are supporting me!

Originally Posted by Dragonitti

Not the equivalent sorry. GT5 would not be a 1080p TV without 1080p. Car customization is a gimmick not the core feature of a racing simulator. It's the core feature of a Racing Game, not a racing simulator. Thus why Forza is a Racing Game and not a SIM. It looks to entertain first rather than create something above entertainment. GT5 looks to immerse you into the car world and brings the passion of automotive world and racing to you. If you don't get that sense, then you simply haven't played GT long enough or looked to much into it.

Why is it not the equivalent? GT5 has been released unfinished and I can't see how I can make a much better comparison?

I know car customisation is not the core feature of a racing simulator, but at the same time you have to realise that almost NO car used in races are completely stock, so customization is a HUGE part of racing.

People that want a sim go to a computer or buy an actual simulator. The PS3 is a gaming console - keyword 'gaming'. GT5 is a video game and will never be anything more, Forza 3 is the same. I don't see how GT5 brings any more 'passion' into the game than Forza 3....

Originally Posted by Dragonitti

The APEX guide that came with GT5 Collectors Edition....has real wold driving techniques in it like Heel-toe downshift, driving lines, driving lines for double apexes....etc. The equivalent of a FM3 guide like that does not exists and if it did, it probably would tell you how to merge colors together with different graphics...lol.

You are right here, Forza 3 doesn't have anything of the sort, but it doesn't mean that those techniques cannot be used in the game, it just means you have to learn them somewhere other than a game guide!

Originally Posted by Dragonitti

My point is the size of GT is nearly 3 times larger than Forza3. Obviously development time it takes to make GT is not going to be cranked out in the same amount of time it took to make a lower quality game like FM3.

With regards to the Premium cars polygons, yes. With regards to things like sounds, physics, A.I, etc. not so much. The difference between a high quality sound and low quality sound is in the compression, which is where FM3 had to save space, because of the limit's of DVD's. this wouldn't make any difference to time taken to produce the game.

Originally Posted by Dragonitti

I'll take realism over customization any day. NFS does customization, FM does customization, neither do realism. GT is the only Console game that's a racing simulator. I road race in real life, it's what I'm into. Thus why I'm a GT player and not a Forza player. I can't get past the cartoon colors of Forza. It's like driving a comic book.

Regardless of what game you are on they will never be a simulator, including GT5. It is a video game first and foremost, made to make money. A simulator is used to train people - eg. Pilots, etc.

Originally Posted by Dragonitti

And if you come back and say FM3 is realistic in physics as GT5, then I'll have to simply laugh and tell you to go play GT5 without the bandaids "cough" driver aids, which can't be disabled in FM3. FM has been commented as "cars feel like they are floating on the surface".

I've already agreed the Physics in GT5 are better than FM3.

I played GT5 without the driver aids, and I also play FM3 without them, so you still say they can't be disbaled in FM3?

Originally Posted by Dragonitti

When you compare the Standard cars during Game play, they look like FM3 cars during game play. FM3 cars outside of game play look better than Standard GT5 cars outside of game play...why...because you can't get Standard cars in Photomode in GT5. And when it comes to photomode, FM3 ramps up the graphics just like GT5 does.

Bullshit. FM3 cars look better than GT5 standard cars in both Photo mode and in game.

Of course Forza 3 cars look better outside of gameplay than GT5 standard cars... they have more polygons.

Originally Posted by Dragonitti

When it comes to IN-GAME play....GT5 Premium cars > FM3 and when it comes to Photomode, GT5 Premium cars > FM3.

I'm not debating this at all, GT5 uses better hardware, and the PREMIUM cars are modelled better..

Originally Posted by Dragonitti

Even GT5 Prologue's Poly count is higher than FM3.

GT5P has 200k per car.

GT5P was even more unfinished than GT5 and NEVER should have been released IMO.

Originally Posted by Dragonitti

Part about Forza 3 track realisms...

Hmm, I think you might be right here...

Originally Posted by Dragonitti

They ramp up colors in FM3 and make it pretty. Where GT5 the colors are not that lively....real world colors when you stop and look are not colored up like a doctored photo. Or when you are viewing out your front windshield while driving, everything is not extra lighted or colored up to it's most radiant. I don't like that about FM3, all the colors are radiant and bright to the point it looks doctored up and comic book feeling. But at the same time, it's an Arcade game rather than a SIM so that's what they do.

I also agree with this, Forza looks too bright. But at the same time GT5 looks too dull.

Originally Posted by Dragonitti

PS....they don't even get the Sign's on the bridges and the bridges themselves modeled correctly in FM3....tisk tisk. I'm not saying that FM3 sucks don't get me wrong. It caters to a different segment of racers that's all.

Hmm, did I see in one of those video's no paint marking's on the road of the 'Ring? Forza 3 has those marking's that should be there...

Originally Posted by Dragonitti

I'm pretty sure the Poly count of GT5 Standard cars is the same as FM3's cars during game play. Premium GT5 cars though are 500k polys...super exceeding FM3's.

Might be worth finding out the poly count of the GT5 standard cars then... Because if they are imported from GT4, there is no way they will be anywhere the near next-gen console level.

Originally Posted by Dragonitti

The 200 Premium car list will grow with a DLC in a few days. GT5 is trying to make the standard of 1080P @ 60fps the goal at the same time shadows suffer because they are "dynamic".

Once again, it's not good enough, they should have cut down the amount of cars and released fewer of them at a consistant level.

[ichitaka05]

Originally Posted by Snaps

People that want a sim go to a computer or buy an actual simulator. The PS3 is a gaming console - keyword 'gaming'. GT5 is a video game and will never be anything more, Forza 3 is the same. I don't see how GT5 brings any more 'passion' into the game than Forza 3....

IDK, GT is having actual race event. Good example, when 370z demo race. Top 16 fastest time people had a chance to drive the actual 370z & GT-R. Winner actually raced in the race.

That was so hit, they gonna do it again. This time to North America. While Forza... well, I haven't heard anything like that. Is there any Forza owner can actually compete and can drive the real car and actually race in real life? If there's one then this comment is totally failed on my part.

Originally Posted by Snaps

Regardless of what game you are on they will never be a simulator, including GT5. It is a video game first and foremost, made to make money. A simulator is used to train people - eg. Pilots, etc.

IDK, I heard pretty good thing bout iRacing (or something like that). That's still a game and made to makes money.

I remember article I read lil while ago, wasn't iRacing champ was tested out to see how he drive in actual pro-racing car and clocked 3 second off from actual pro driver wasn't it? iirc he never drove over 100mph in his life til that day, but braking point, and accuracy of driving line was almost same as pros.

[Dragonitti]

Originally Posted by Snaps

Why is it not the equivalent? GT5 has been released unfinished and I can't see how I can make a much better comparison?

Because GT5 is 1080P and then some. Ironically it actually runs in TRUE 1080P unlike Forza (which upscales 720p to 1080p). That's like comparing a Blue Ray player that plays in 1080P with sound output through HDMI to a DVD player that tries to upscale to HD quality. Want the real thing, or an attempt at recreation?

To fit your "comparison" it would be more like you going into a store and wanting the 60 inch LED 120hz 1080P and they only had the 50 inch available, but will allow you to purchase the 50 with a voucher to return it for the 60 inch when they get in.

Originally Posted by Snaps

I know car customisation is not the core feature of a racing simulator, but at the same time you have to realise that almost NO car used in races are completely stock, so customization is a HUGE part of racing.

My R35 in the game pushes 800+hp, my FT86c in the game pushes 397hp. My GSport pushes 410hp...Come race with a stock car if you want to. Oh wait....customization equates to pretty colors to Forza fans. Sorry, since that's a big part of Your idea of customization. I personally do NOT want that put into GT. Sure cars that are modeled after the real car with their livery's is fine. But a specific section with a big part of changing decals and what not on cars....Sorry, no thanks. I'll go play NFS for that. I don't want that in GT, as I feel it takes away from what GT's job is.....To provide you with a SIM, not an arcade game.

Originally Posted by Snaps

People that want a sim go to a computer or buy an actual simulator. The PS3 is a gaming console - keyword 'gaming'. GT5 is a video game and will never be anything more, Forza 3 is the same. I don't see how GT5 brings any more 'passion' into the game than Forza 3....

And what's wrong with having a SIM on a console? Nothing. So, your stereotype is false as not everyone has a $1200-1500 dollar computer to support SIM's in the PC world. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a SIM on a console if it can be done, which is what GT is, and seeing as how there were 5.5million copies sold, there seems to be a bunch of other people who agree. It sold 5.5million in just a few days which exceeds Forza as long as it's been out. People have bought PS3's SIMPLY because they wanted GT5. Don't know anyone or have seen comments about people buying an Xbox 360 so they can get a hold of Forza. Forza4 might produce that effect, we shall see.

I don't think you have played GT enough to make an opinion on it. World Class drivers participate in playing GT. People use it to familiarize themselves with Race tracks. Now you are simply saying things without backing them up....there are TONS of history behind GT and it's close relationship with REAL WORLD Motorsports. I'm not even going to go down that road with you as you are simply making comments now without even doing the research.

http://gamer.blorge.com/2010/12/19/g...e-car-drivers/

GT5 is the vision of one man

You think Turn10 developers go this far?

Originally Posted by Snaps

You are right here, Forza 3 doesn't have anything of the sort, but it doesn't mean that those techniques cannot be used in the game, it just means you have to learn them somewhere other than a game guide!

You can use the techniques in the game if you want to, but it will have no effect on the game play/car handling whatsoever. In GT5 if you are using a G25 or G27 or the new Thrustmaster wheels, and you go to Heel-to downshift using the Clutch it actually affects the cars corner entry than if you just simply downshifted normally.

Does FM3 support a Gaming wheel with a clutch? And talk about patches and DLC....FM3 had to update their game with "shifter animations", which is a poor attempt at best, as the animation of the hand is WAY to fast and it doesn't even look like the driver shifts.

Side note: That cockpit view is absolutely HORRENDOUS...Might as well be looking at Cardboard as the gauges aren't even visible.

Here is how shifting is done in GT5.

They grab the actual shifting mechanism (stick) and move it to the proper gear, if its the standard gated shifter. In this case its a Sequential gear shifter so no moving H pattern.

H-Gear pattern shifting and details in drivers actions (its not simply moving the lever back and forth, its actually finding the gear in the correct location of the H-pattern).

[Dragonitti]

Originally Posted by Snaps

With regards to the Premium cars polygons, yes. With regards to things like sounds, physics, A.I, etc. not so much. The difference between a high quality sound and low quality sound is in the compression, which is where FM3 had to save space, because of the limit's of DVD's. this wouldn't make any difference to time taken to produce the game.

Sound is about the only thing in FM3 that they get right in terms of modeling cars. Everything else...cockpit renderings, physics, road surface, accuracy in tracks and accuracy in car modeling....turns me off when I compare it to GT5.

Here's a news flash....DVD's aren't going to get any bigger in size, so any game developed for the 360 can never supersede a PS3 game that utilizes the PS3's hardware. DVD will never be a Blue Ray.

Originally Posted by Snaps

Regardless of what game you are on they will never be a simulator, including GT5. It is a video game first and foremost, made to make money. A simulator is used to train people - eg. Pilots, etc.

Your opinion which is based on no facts. I say GT5 is a racing simulator and can back it up with countless videos of non-pro drivers (average guys) who race in real life, comparing their lap times on the same track in the game as they have achieved in real life and running identical times. And then there is the Pro Drivers who vouch for GT's accuracy in real world tracks and it's physics. But you might write that off as a publicity stunt, so I mentioned the average guys first.

Originally Posted by Snaps

I've already agreed the Physics in GT5 are better than FM3.

I played GT5 without the driver aids, and I also play FM3 without them, so you still say they can't be disbaled in FM3?

You think I made the "Permanent Aid" thing up about FM3? Go look it up bro.

Never mind here you go:

Originally Posted by Snaps

Bullshit. FM3 cars look better than GT5 standard cars in both Photo mode and in game.

Of course Forza 3 cars look better outside of gameplay than GT5 standard cars... they have more polygons.

Does not look better IN-GAME sorry.

Originally Posted by Snaps

GT5P was even more unfinished than GT5 and NEVER should have been released IMO.

GT5P had everything Forza3 does...lol. In the same fashion as well. Aside from the "painting car customization and engine swap parts". As mentioned, this is not GT's core vision and focus like it is Forza. And I think god it isn't as it will be just like everything else.

Originally Posted by Snaps

I also agree with this, Forza looks too bright. But at the same time GT5 looks too dull.

Real World, colors look dull. Not comic bookish..

Originally Posted by Snaps

Hmm, did I see in one of those video's no paint marking's on the road of the 'Ring? Forza 3 has those marking's that should be there...

Go look again.

Originally Posted by Snaps

Might be worth finding out the poly count of the GT5 standard cars then... Because if they are imported from GT4, there is no way they will be anywhere the near next-gen console level.

The models were ported and tweaked so not simply straight from GT4 like you make it out to be.

Originally Posted by Snaps

Once again, it's not good enough, they should have cut down the amount of cars and released fewer of them at a consistant level.

Your opinion, not mine.

[Dragonitti]

GT5 photo....

[Snaps]

Originally Posted by ichitaka05

IDK, GT is having actual race event. Good example, when 370z demo race. Top 16 fastest time people had a chance to drive the actual 370z & GT-R. Winner actually raced in the race.

Still doesn't make GT5 a simulator...

Originally Posted by ichitaka05

Is there any Forza owner can actually compete and can drive the real car and actually race in real life? If there's one then this comment is totally failed on my part.

No, there's not. If a person wants to do that they should be using their money on a real car and real trackdays rather than a video game.

Originally Posted by ichitaka05

IDK, I heard pretty good thing bout iRacing (or something like that). That's still a game and made to makes money.

I remember article I read lil while ago, wasn't iRacing champ was tested out to see how he drive in actual pro-racing car and clocked 3 second off from actual pro driver wasn't it? iirc he never drove over 100mph in his life til that day, but braking point, and accuracy of driving line was almost same as pros.

Still doesn't make it a simulator, just makes it a game that uses realistic physics.

Originally Posted by Dragonitti

Because GT5 is 1080P and then some. Ironically it actually runs in TRUE 1080P unlike Forza (which upscales 720p to 1080p). That's like comparing a Blue Ray player that plays in 1080PDVD player that tries to upscale to HD quality.

Doesn't matter about resolution if they still haven't got high-poly count car models. (Talking about standard cars here, Premium cars are more than high-enough for 1080P)

Originally Posted by Dragonitti

To fit your "comparison" it would be more like you going into a store and wanting the 60 inch LED 120hz 1080P and they only had the 50 inch available, but will allow you to purchase the 50 with a voucher to return it for the 60 inch when they get in.

And are there not other brands of TV to go for, that they have stock of in 60"? I would switch to another brand before wasting my time taking a TV home, setting it up, and then having to take it down again when the new TV gets in...

Originally Posted by Dragonitti

Oh wait....customization equates to pretty colors to Forza fans. Sorry, since that's a big part of Your idea of customization.

Honestly, I hardly use that side of Forza. In fact, I don't even use Xbox Live. Changing graphics on my cars is not something I do, and I don't try and show my cars off to friends to see who can make the coolest designs I never wanted that in Forza either.

Originally Posted by Dragonitti

And what's wrong with having a SIM on a console? Nothing. So, your stereotype is false as not everyone has a $1200-1500 dollar computer to support SIM's in the PC world.

I'll have to give you that one, I think. I cant think of any arguments against it

Originally Posted by Dragonitti

I don't think you have played GT enough to make an opinion on it.

GT5 or the GT series? Believe me I've played enough of the GT series, just not of GT5. I've played every GT up to GT4 and clocked every one of them. GT5 disappointed me and so I didn't buy it.

Originally Posted by Dragonitti

World Class drivers participate in playing GT. People use it to familiarize themselves with Race tracks. Now you are simply saying things without backing them up....there are TONS of history behind GT and it's close relationship with REAL WORLD Motorsports.

There is no reason they couldn't use Forza 3 to familiarize themselves with tracks, and I don't know enough to say whether they do or not.

Originally Posted by Dragonitti

You can use the techniques in the game if you want to, but it will have no effect on the game play/car handling whatsoever.

Are you being serious? Have you seen the real-time telemetry in Forza 3? Any braking, throttle or turning affects the car's current ride height on all corners, affects how much the car is dipping while coming into corners how much it is leaning back when accelerating, among other things.

I think we need to agree that we both need to test the other game a little more....

Originally Posted by Dragonitti

Does FM3 support a Gaming wheel with a clutch?

FM3 does support the Fanantec Wheel (made specifically for Forza) which has an H-pattern shifter and clutch, which Forza suports both.

Originally Posted by Dragonitti

Side note: That cockpit view is absolutely HORRENDOUS...Might as well be looking at Cardboard as the gauges aren't even visible.

At least it's there in EVERY car.

Originally Posted by Dragonitti

Sound is about the only thing in FM3 that they get right in terms of modeling cars. Everything else...cockpit renderings, physics, road surface, accuracy in tracks and accuracy in car modeling....turns me off when I compare it to GT5.

And the reason for these? probably the storage size limit's of DVD's, I'm sure given Blu-ray and the PS3's hardware Turn 10 could have produced the same effects as GT5 in the bolded areas.

I'm sure Forza 4 will greatly improve in all of the other aspects, hopefully getting close to, or beating GT5's physics and road surface feel.

Originally Posted by Dragonitti

Here's a news flash....DVD's aren't going to get any bigger in size, so any game developed for the 360 can never supersede a PS3 game that utilizes the PS3's hardware.

And that's where a lot of the downfall comes in.... Forza 3 had to use 2 DVD's because of the amount of content with regards to extra cars and tracks, they couldn't fit it on to one DVD.

Originally Posted by Dragonitti

I say GT5 is a racing simulator and can back it up with countless videos of non-pro drivers (average guys) who race in real life, comparing their lap times on the same track in the game as they have achieved in real life and running identical times. And then there is the Pro Drivers who vouch for GT's accuracy in real world tracks and it's physics.

You can't compare real-life to a video game. There are just too many variables to be able to get a clear answer. How do you know those driver's aren't better (or worse) using a controller/racing wheel than driving in real life, when they can feel the movements of the car, can feel the limit's of the friction of the tires? And most importantly, when you have things like adrenaline and fear changing the way a driver acts, those don't come into affect nearly as much when you're playing a video game as to when you're racing in a real car. (Yes, I have been on a racetrack, twice. It is a COMPLETELY different experience than driving with a racing wheel at home)

Originally Posted by Dragonitti

You think I made the "Permanent Aid" thing up about FM3? Go look it up bro.

I couldn't see the video (using a friends computer and it doesn't have flash player ), but if that's true then I really do hope they take it out in Forza 4.

I have never noticed it.

Originally Posted by Dragonitti

Does not look better IN-GAME sorry.

Go and play Forza 3. Keep in mind I am only referring to the standard car models vs. Forza 3 car models, not the track itself. I am talking about in-game too.

Originally Posted by Dragonitti

GT5P had everything Forza3 does...lol. In the same fashion as well. Aside from the "painting car customization and engine swap parts".

The amount of content in GT5P is ridiculously low compared to Forza 3, it doesn't have anywhere near as many cars or tracks.

Originally Posted by Dragonitti

Real World, colors look dull. Not comic bookish..

All I'm saying is that neither GT5 or Forza have got it right, yet.

Originally Posted by Dragonitti

The models were ported and tweaked so not simply straight from GT4 like you make it out to be.

Look at the Supra MKIV model as an example, it's terrible. Or the Suzuki Wagon R (I think it is?).

Wow, these posts are getting ridiculously long

[BoostJunkie]

Dragonitti, I don't understand why you don't like customization, I mean I'm all about the driving, but if you can't customize you car, and I'm not just talking about pretty colors & decals.... Then the game gets boring, from what I've read it sounds like your really just a GT5 fan boy, I support all race games that even try to somewhat make it with realism.... Except all NFS(- shift...it was o.k.) but that's just my .02..... I've been reading for a while and you guys are pretty entertaining..... Continue on