Anyone not buying to avoid early issues like 1st gen FRS?

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Yoshoobaroo

Yes, but there are plenty of 16-24 year olds that will be wrapping them around trees and poles on the street. Just like when the FR-S came out.

And just like they do with SUVs, minivans, base sedans and so on. Over driving a car for conditions, car abilities or experience are not the exclusive territory of rwd sports cars. I doubt you will find that any more of these get crashed than other types of cars.

[soundman98]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

And just like they do with SUVs, minivans, base sedans and so on. Over driving a car for conditions, car abilities or experience are not the exclusive territory of rwd sports cars. I doubt you will find that any more of these get crashed than other types of cars.

To a degree. I think it will be slightly higher in snowfall areas simply because the majority of vehicles the kids will learn with will be fwd, or awd, and I think we can agree that rwd snow handling requires a slightly different approach, that, depending on how they or the previous owners chose to tire the vehicle, could result in more oddball handling.

[Yoshoobaroo]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

And just like they do with SUVs, minivans, base sedans and so on. Over driving a car for conditions, car abilities or experience are not the exclusive territory of rwd sports cars. I doubt you will find that any more of these get crashed than other types of cars.

Yup, I didn’t mean to imply it’s the car, it’s just that people in that age group tend to over-drive cars more than older people, and then losing control. I’m still sort of surprised I never actually crashed my first car.

[soundman98]

Every vehicle I've owned has at least one dent

[Yoshoobaroo]

Originally Posted by soundman98

Every vehicle I've owned has at least one dent

I mean that’s life. That’s why the PDR guy gets 300 bucks every few years.

[Blighty]

Originally Posted by FRSBRZGT86FAN

I'm with @Tcoat here, that's a horrible take, this is the most predictable handling car I've ever driven with traction control off doing auto-x. I highly doubt the percentage of on track crashes are any worse than other cars taken on track for the first time for people like miatas, 300zs, 3 series etc etc.

If anything doing the pedal dance makes this car even more predictable without brake system involvement while trail braking and such.

I'm just going from what I can see and hear from the pre-releases drives.

The back gets loose easily (its stiffer than ever), so much so that there is a documented mid corner loss of rear traction without prodding.

Add to that more torque and a touchy accelerator and you have plenty of potential for some snap oversteer.

AND I would also say that the car mostly in the hands of those young enthusiast will be the base model running on those primacy tires...

I'm betting there are few engines for sale at some point early into next year.

[Blighty]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

And just like they do with SUVs, minivans, base sedans and so on. Over driving a car for conditions, car abilities or experience are not the exclusive territory of rwd sports cars. I doubt you will find that any more of these get crashed than other types of cars.

Sure there are inexperienced drivers of every type of car, but rwd is far more risky. Oversteering into a spin, with then a fishtail into an object, or a complete uncontrolled spin is a common type of accident on a RWD vehicle.

Honestly I didn't think we would be having a conversation if RWD is more risky. IT IS. Turn your traction control off in the wet, and even the low torque 86, at low speed, can go on you without much warning.

FWD dont really lose it at low speeds, and the profile of how they do lose control is generally straight and fixed by applying the brake - a natural reaction that doesn't work as well when your car is spinning.

[Yoshoobaroo]

Originally Posted by Blighty

- even the low torque 86, at low speed, can go on you without much warning.

I agree with your post almost entirely, except for this. The 86 telegraphs incipient loss of traction more than any RWD car I’ve driven, given that it has good tires on it (primaries are fine. I bought mine used with some cooper tires on it and those were shit.)

[steverife]

People will drive stupid and wreck them.

I can't really see legions of people going out and binning every last one of them while driving to get their morning coffee and bagel. I can't really see it being that different than any other modern RWD sporty car out there.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Blighty

Sure there are inexperienced drivers of every type of car, but rwd is far more risky. Oversteering into a spin, with then a fishtail into an object, or a complete uncontrolled spin is a common type of accident on a RWD vehicle.

Honestly I didn't think we would be having a conversation if RWD is more risky. IT IS. Turn your traction control off in the wet, and even the low torque 86, at low speed, can go on you without much warning.

FWD dont really lose it at low speeds, and the profile of how they do lose control is generally straight and fixed by applying the brake - a natural reaction that doesn't work as well when your car is spinning.

Bull. Pickup trucks are far worse. People drove rwd for decades without everybody spinning down every road with a curve in it.
This whole “rwd takes special care and skill” thing that has developed is hilarious.

[racingfool]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

“rwd takes special care and skill”

It does for those that have only driven with driver aids/abs/traction control.

While learning to drive, wouldn't it be good to learn how to stop a car without abs/tc?

New drivers learn they can just mash on the gas or brakes as hard as they can with no problems.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by racingfool

It does for those that have only driven with driver aids/abs/traction control..

actually it doesn't because they are also the least likely to turn the nannies off. In addition, frankly, the "nannies" used to be built into the suspension of the car before manufacturers were able to do it with computers. Sure antilock brakes and skid control works at a higher level, but to my mind cars that are developed knowing the software will be there are less safe with the software turned off than a car designed with no software at all. At least, that's been my experience.

[racingfool]

I didn't mean turn off the abs/tc, I meant learn in a car without the aids.
Don't you think it would make for a better driver when they do drive with the assist?

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by racingfool

I didn't mean turn off the abs/tc, I meant learn in a car without the aids.
Don't you think it would make for a better driver when they do drive with the assist?

Sure, but for most drivers its not necessary since they will likely never drive one without it.

It's similar to learning to fly. They used to require you to train in spin recovery as part of getting your private pilots license. What they determined after many years was that teaching spin avoidance (basically recovery from a stall) was much more effective, since to get in a spin, you have to first stall and ultimately the training was more dangerous than not training.

if you want to learn spins and spin recovery, it is available, but you really only need it for aerobatics.

Same with what you describe, it would make you a better driver, but only if you need it. The nannies are the equivalent of spin avoidance training. Don't turn them off, you won't get into that situation. If you do want to get into that situation (say for track use), get training.