Everyday Driver "Greatest Hits" - Eco Mustang v. WRX v. FR-S v. FiST

[GotMunchies?]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Therein lies the problem. The compression is TOO high. At 10.6:1 compression, the WRX is able to run much more timing advance under low (cruising) loads, and ends up extracting much more torque from the same amount of fuel.

The MPG has nothing to do with the fact that the WRX is turbo. 10.6:1 is high enough that it can extract a good amount of torque from a given combustion event, but low enough that you don't have to pull timing to prevent detonation at low load, low RPM, so that you can get more power at high RPM.

Even with the extra weight, and extra drivetrain losses of having AWD, the WRX still gets better cruising MPG.

If i'm on the throttle and driving hard, MPG drops instantly.

Gearing also has quite a lot to do with mileage. From Edmunds, the WRX has a 0.666 6th gear on a 4.11 final drive ratio. The BRZ (manual) has a 0.767 6th gear on a 4.10 final drive.

But that's only part of the story - every gear in the WRX is much taller than the BRZ's. 4th gear in the WRX is over drive (0.97) while 6th gear in the BRZ is the ONLY overdriven gear.

If you gave the BRZ more economic ratios, you'd probably get stellar fuel economy... and it would be impossible to have ANY fun.

All that aside, major kudos for Subaru getting that kind of economy out of the WRX, it really knocks down one of the major past criticisms of the WRX as a daily driver candidate.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by GotMunchies?

Gearing also has quite a lot to do with mileage. From Edmunds, the WRX has a 0.666 6th gear on a 4.11 final drive ratio. The BRZ (manual) has a 0.767 6th gear on a 4.10 final drive.

But that's only part of the story - every gear in the WRX is much taller than the BRZ's. 4th gear in the WRX is over drive (0.97) while 6th gear in the BRZ is the ONLY overdriven gear.

If you gave the BRZ more economic ratios, you'd probably get stellar fuel economy... and it would be impossible to have ANY fun.

All that aside, major kudos for Subaru getting that kind of economy out of the WRX, it really knocks down one of the major past criticisms of the WRX as a daily driver candidate.

Yes and no.

I can sit on the fwy in 4th gear in the WRX, and I see roughly a 15% reduction in MPG. In 5th gear, its closer to ~6%.

I actually "forget" to shift and sit in 5th gear on the highway a lot in the WRX.... =X


I also really like the taller gears in the WRX; it suits the car's powerband well, and its awesome for trolling. When an evo or sti hits me up, I usually start in 5th from a roll. This leads to a slower spool-up, which makes the car seem "normal", until they shift into 4th at 80ish, and 5th at 100ish, and they realize I still haven't changed gears...

I've yet to have ever redlined 5th in the WRX...

[wlfpck]

Originally Posted by abraxis

Yeah, my stock Legacy GT gets around 23mpg combined. Maybe it doesn't know how turbos work? Maybe Toyota doesn't either which is why there aren't any on the Prius or other hybrids?

Not really gonna get into the debate about the MPG thing. Just saw this statement and figured it should be noted that...

There's no turbo chargers on the Prius because people who buy them are not interested in power. Having a turbocharger would drive the price up. The market they're selling to is not the same market as the wrx, brz, etc.

BMW has hybrid cars with a turbocharger. The ActiveHybrid 3 series is an example.

http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Conte...s/Default.aspx

VW Jetta Hybrid also uses a http://www.vw.com/models/jetta/trims...-premium-trim/

In terms of what gets better gas mileage...

I'd think driving a stock BRZ "normally" versus a stock wrx "normally" would result in the BRZ getting better gas mileage. This being due to the awd vs just rwd. Also... I believe the gears are shorter on the wrx?

However, a speculation in which some people are getting better gas mileage in a wrx could be due to tuning. If I'm not mistaken, the stock tune on the wrx runs rich. Running a leaner tune could possibly help them get better gas mileage.

No idea... just a guess on my part.

[xxBrun0xx]

After owning a stock, stage 1, and now stage 2 BRZ, and having driven a 15 WRX, 11 Mustang GT, and a 15 Mustang Ecoboost, I have some thoughts.

1. The 5.0 is incredible. My 08 sti made 350 wtq, and above 3500 rpm, the thing was an animal. The 5.0 is an animal from idle to redline. It's very addictive and very smooth, and driving one is eye-opening.

2. The BRZ is special. Obviously, you all know this. It is definitely more than the sum of its parts. If you haven't gotten an OFT Stage 1 tune yet, I highly recommend. Really wakes the car up. Stage 2 is obviously faster, but my butt-dyno can't tell the difference, which was disappointing.

3. The 15 WRX is the most boring car of the bunch. I test drove one expecting to love it and was really let down. It sounds great on paper, but in person, it just doesn't feel special the way the Mustang GT and BRZ do. It feels like an econobox with a turbo.

4. Mustang Ecoboost is slightly more fun to drive than the WRX, but less than the BRZ. Stock, I prefer the V6 to the Ecoboost, but with a tune, I imagine the Ecoboost would be much better. Imagine if Subaru made a BRZ with +150 hp for +$5k, would be a no-brainer. That's what this feels like compared to the 5.0.

I've debated trading in the BRZ for a 5.0, but I just can't imagine giving up such an awesome car. Have convinced wife to take the BRZ when her Volvo bites the dust, at which point I'll pick up a 5.0.


Have no idea where the Fiesta ST sits, but would love to test drive one. Have heard nothing but good things, and seems like they pick up a lot of power with a tune.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by xxBrun0xx

After owning a stock, stage 1, and now stage 2 BRZ, and having driven a 15 WRX, 11 Mustang GT, and a 15 Mustang Ecoboost, I have some thoughts.

1. The 5.0 is incredible. My 08 sti made 350 wtq, and above 3500 rpm, the thing was an animal. The 5.0 is an animal from idle to redline. It's very addictive and very smooth, and driving one is eye-opening.

2. The BRZ is special. Obviously, you all know this. It is definitely more than the sum of its parts. If you haven't gotten an OFT Stage 1 tune yet, I highly recommend. Really wakes the car up. Stage 2 is obviously faster, but my butt-dyno can't tell the difference, which was disappointing.

3. The 15 WRX is the most boring car of the bunch. I test drove one expecting to love it and was really let down. It sounds great on paper, but in person, it just doesn't feel special the way the Mustang GT and BRZ do. It feels like an econobox with a turbo.

4. Mustang Ecoboost is slightly more fun to drive than the WRX, but less than the BRZ. Stock, I prefer the V6 to the Ecoboost, but with a tune, I imagine the Ecoboost would be much better. Imagine if Subaru made a BRZ with +150 hp for +$5k, would be a no-brainer. That's what this feels like compared to the 5.0.

I've debated trading in the BRZ for a 5.0, but I just can't imagine giving up such an awesome car. Have convinced wife to take the BRZ when her Volvo bites the dust, at which point I'll pick up a 5.0.


Have no idea where the Fiesta ST sits, but would love to test drive one. Have heard nothing but good things, and seems like they pick up a lot of power with a tune.

No GT350?

[tahdizzle]

[xxBrun0xx]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

No GT350?

Are mortals allowed to test drive GT350's?

I have, ridden in a friend's 2013 GT500 w/ all bolt ons (750 whp on a mustang dyno). With 3 people in the car, it went from 20-140 mph in about 100 yards. I realized at that moment my STI was never going to be fast.

[Bergen23]

Rode in a coworkers 2015 Mustang GT. After that, I've realized how much the twins are lacking in power. Now, that's more power than I can handle (at the limit, dailying wouldn't be an issue) but, to be able to accelerate like that is really amazing. At this point, I'm looking to take an Ecoboost out on a test drive, as that kind of power is what I'm looking for. If I like it, then the FR-S will be gone within 1.5 years

[DAEMANO]

@Bergen23

Much like Paul in the video, if a person wanted muscle car power over precision handling and feel, then a stock 86 was never the car for them. The Stang will never have the agility of an 86.

As has been said over and over, it's easier (and cheaper) to add power than to subtract weight.

Why not just go F.I. on your FR-S and get both?

[raven1231]

Originally Posted by DAEMANO

@Bergen23

Much like Paul in the video, if a person wanted muscle car power over precision handling and feel, then a stock 86 was never the car for them. The Stang will never have the agility of an 86.

As has been said over and over, it's easier (and cheaper) to add power than to subtract weight.

Why not just go F.I. on your FR-S and get both?

My guess would be the reliability and peace of mind that comes with a factory FI car.

[DAEMANO]

Originally Posted by raven1231

My guess would be the reliability and peace of mind that comes with a factory FI car.

Can't argue with a warranty. Still, in a discussion about driving enjoyment (power, agility, etc) should warranties be factored in?

[Bergen23]

Originally Posted by DAEMANO

@Bergen23

Much like Paul in the video, if a person wanted muscle car power over precision handling and feel, then a stock 86 was never the car for them. The Stang will never have the agility of an 86.

As has been said over and over, it's easier (and cheaper) to add power than to subtract weight.

Why not just go F.I. on your FR-S and get both?

No, I totally get that, but, there's a bit more at work than what I decided to write down. I don't make it out to the track/autox/HPDE at all, because I only spend 5 days at home per month, and I have way too much shit to deal with to say "Hmm, maybe I'll drive 2 hours to get to the track (or whatever event) spend an morning/afternoon/evening/whatever then spend another 2 hours driving back". There's also not a whole lot of great roads to drive on local to me, and the ones that are fun, are low speed limits and I'm worried about tickets.

Don't get me wrong, I love my FR-S, it's been an amazing introduction to the world of car enthusiast-ness. And I've had a lot of fun driving it and such. But, as @raven1231 mentioned, it comes down to warranty and reliability as to why I don't want to go FI. I could save that money, and have a great down payment, plus the FR-S as a trade (Or maybe keep for another fun car? Who knows, as this is a long time away) and have very small payments on a car. Plus, the Mustang is very nice inside, and has creature comforts the FR-S doesn't.

Another thing to point out (which kind of ties into the HPDE thing) I don't overly care about making huge power, I'd be happy with the Mustang in stock form (minus coils and wheels to stance it out) and wouldn't need to worry about adding power. It all comes down to personal preference really. I bought the car because I told myself when I first saw it many moons ago that I'd own one some day. And in all honesty, it does what it was designed for very well, but I am missing seat of the pants acceleration. And there's many cars I've been looking at, Mustangs, Challengers, Caymans, S5's. I don't need something that'll slay corners all day.

TL;DR: FR-S is good at what it does, but it might not be for me after owning it for half a year

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by raven1231

My guess would be the reliability and peace of mind that comes with a factory FI car.

I was in the same boat.

Then I realized not a single Vortech or Jackson Racing car has blown up on the off the shelf CARB approved tune. It's been about 2 years, most people have tens of thousands of miles on them. It could be argued that a supercharged car is more reliable than a stock one at this point (especially the early cars with the tunes that resulted in DI failure that most dealerships won't bother to reflash).

Originally Posted by Bergen23

But, as @raven1231 mentioned, it comes down to warranty and reliability as to why I don't want to go FI. I could save that money, and have a great down payment, plus the FR-S as a trade (Or maybe keep for another fun car? Who knows, as this is a long time away) and have very small payments on a car. Plus, the Mustang is very nice inside, and has creature comforts the FR-S doesn't.

Another thing to point out (which kind of ties into the HPDE thing) I don't overly care about making huge power, I'd be happy with the Mustang in stock form (minus coils and wheels to stance it out) and wouldn't need to worry about adding power.

Vortech and Jackson racing are both claiming ~300 at the crank with an off the shelf tune, EcoBoost Mustang claiming 310 with an additional 800 lbs along with it.

I'll eat my words if there's a car that was blown up with an off the shelf tune from either Vortech or Jackson but I've been looking for a few months now and haven't seen one, all the dead ones are running custom tunes from what I can tell.

I'll be doing it in probably 2-3 years after I master the handling of the car and see what reliability looks like as we get a good sample of cars into 100k miles both with and without FI.

Timeframe probably has a lot to do with it, if you're looking to trade before summer's out what I say here probably won't convince you, but if you're looking at trading in 2-3 years we should have some good data on FI+stock block reliability.

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=56331

[Bergen23]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Vortech and Jackson racing are both claiming ~300 at the crank with an off the shelf tune, EcoBoost Mustang claiming 310 with an additional 800 lbs along with it.

I'll eat my words if there's a car that was blown up with an off the shelf tune but I've been looking for a few months now and haven't seen one, all the dead ones are running custom tunes from what I can tell.

I'll be doing it in probably 2-3 years after I master the handling of the car and see what reliability looks like as we get a good sample of cars into 100k miles both with and without FI.

Timeframe probably has a lot to do with it, if you're looking to trade before summer's out what I say here probably won't convince you, but if you're looking at trading in 2-3 years we should have some good data on FI+stock block reliability.

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=56331

It's not necessarily only to do with power. I like the whole package. My coworker also has the Performance Package on his, so he has Recaros, bigger brakes, bigger wheels, better tires, the whole nine yards. Not sure if that's available on the Ecoboost, but I wont be buying until around this time next year, soonest.

I don't know what kinds of tuning solutions are available for the Ecoboost either. I'm hoping that it's something like with the VW GTI, where a new flash will give you a bunch more power for cheap, and I'd do that if I felt the need.

And to dive in a little more on another reason I'd like to stay away from FI with the FR-S, the fucking exchange rate. The vortech (at 6010.99 USD) works out to 7781.80 CAD and the JRSC (at 4995 USD) works out to 6468.91 CAD. That is a ridiculous sum of money. 1/4 of the cars worth...

I could trade my car in, and (hypothetically, if I was ready to put that kind of cash as a down payment) for a Mustang right now, assuming my FR-S has a trade value of 15,000 and I do a down payment of 6500 (Cheapest FI option) my monthly payment would be $357 for a 36 month finance. I'd much rather do that, than fuck around with boosting this bitch.

Trust me, Strat, I get what you're saying, but for me, the numbers just don't add up. And, I know that both those SC kits are *relatively* safe (only because there's a hundred variables, and who knows what MAY go wrong), but having boost from the factory puts my mind at ease way more than adding it on aftermarket