Airlift on the track?

[Khorne]

Originally Posted by Andrew@ORT

so, what you're saying is that KW V2's are not a good coilover?

Not at all, what i am saying is that you can have 2 sets of V2's for the cost of an airlift kit.
A comparable coilover would be one that has a similar cost to the end user, hence i stated MCA Golds or Ohlins R&T. But then that probably wouldn't go the way airlift want for their marketing material would it?

[Andrew@ORT]

Originally Posted by Khorne

Not at all, what i am saying is that you can have 2 sets of V2's for the cost of an airlift kit.
A comparable coilover would be one that has a similar cost to the end user, hence i stated MCA Golds or Ohlins R&T. But then that probably wouldn't go the way airlift want for their marketing material would it?

After doing some inquiring at AirLift (because I'm pretty nosy), I found out that the coilovers on the FR-S tested were actually KW V3. They retail at $2,300. That's a pretty good chunk of change and air suspension wouldn't be too terribly much more on top of that. From what you've said though, you make it sound as though AirLift was merely trying to stack the deck in their favor. Which, I assure you, is not the case. The comparison cars were setup by an unbiased race team engineer.

Truthfully, I think that many people who sit on here and bash air suspension have never driven a car with air suspension. I also think that there are a lot of common misconceptions about air suspension and it's capability. There are plenty of systems on the market that can be corner balanced and track prepped. FWIW, air suspension has made a lot of progress over the last 4-6 years and it's not like the days of mini-trunkin where it's going to ride and handle like crap.

[Michael Blue]

I saw an article (in a Tire Rack email?) a few years ago about a "performance air system" being tested on a WRX.
Before that I'd never really considered air a possibility for anything more than street use, but they seemed pretty impressed with the individual height and spring rate adjustments.
Still not sure how you adjust those individually, but I'd be interested in looking at something like this more closely and seeing if it would be a good choice.

Just for argument's sake, how much weight do you generally add with a complete air system over comparable coilovers?

Thanks!

[Khorne]

Originally Posted by Andrew@ORT

After doing some inquiring at AirLift (because I'm pretty nosy), I found out that the coilovers on the FR-S tested were actually KW V3. They retail at $2,300. That's a pretty good chunk of change and air suspension wouldn't be too terribly much more on top of that. From what you've said though, you make it sound as though AirLift was merely trying to stack the deck in their favor. Which, I assure you, is not the case. The comparison cars were setup by an unbiased race team engineer.

Truthfully, I think that many people who sit on here and bash air suspension have never driven a car with air suspension. I also think that there are a lot of common misconceptions about air suspension and it's capability. There are plenty of systems on the market that can be corner balanced and track prepped. FWIW, air suspension has made a lot of progress over the last 4-6 years and it's not like the days of mini-trunkin where it's going to ride and handle like crap.

From Airlifts own website
http://www.airliftperformance.com/vehicle/scion-fr-s/
The MSRP is $4,270. So 2K more than a KWV3.

I'm not bashing air suspension nor am i saying that it is not good on a track, yes its very respectable. What i am saying is that video is a marketing piece to sell their bags and you'd be very very silly to think otherwise. If it was a fair independent test why then is the coil-over option 1/2 the cost?

You also seem to be overly defensive about my statements of that video for what reason i don't know but whatever. At the end of the day if you have 4K to spend on suspension a comparison of bags and 2K suspension is useless to you. You'd also be stupid to not but a well engineered coilover at that price like the ones I've stated.

[Andrew@ORT]

I'm not defensive at all, I understand that each person is going to have their own opinion on the topic.

However, if you're using their site for a reference guide for pricing, you're going to be paying full MSRP. There are other companies out there who sell the same kit for $3,150.

[draggin_az]

coilovers vs bags is pretty much the same aurgment of supercharger vs turbo

at the end of the day, its whatever the consumer wants

[mkivalex]

Originally Posted by Khorne

From Airlifts own website
http://www.airliftperformance.com/vehicle/scion-fr-s/
The MSRP is $4,270. So 2K more than a KWV3.

I'm not bashing air suspension nor am i saying that it is not good on a track, yes its very respectable. What i am saying is that video is a marketing piece to sell their bags and you'd be very very silly to think otherwise. If it was a fair independent test why then is the coil-over option 1/2 the cost?



You also seem to be overly defensive about my statements of that video for what reason i don't know but whatever. At the end of the day if you have 4K to spend on suspension a comparison of bags and 2K suspension is useless to you. You'd also be stupid to not but a well engineered coilover at that price like the ones I've stated.

Thanks for the responses everybody, sorry I haven't posted much, last couple days have been busy with starting a new job!

I am really torn on the fence and it mainly just comes down to budget. I am pretty confident the airlift will provide enough performance for me to be satisfied. But to justify the extra cost is it worth it over a comparable performing coilover, Would the different in money be better for more upgrades to further improve the car...lots of thinking to be done.

Khorne, I believe you are leaving out a crucial point when comparing the Airlift price point to another coilover.

Sure you could cross compare it against a 4000 dollar coilover, but what you are not taking into account, is that some of that extra money is for the convenience part of the Airlift package, there are many other components required to make the system function aside from the dampeners. So I don't feel it should be compared to a coilover of a similar MSRP.

If what Airlift is trying to say is that they can perform as well as a KW2 AS WELL as being able to control height, then I would not expect them to compare it to a coilover that would be the same price but cannot control height as air suspension can. I think most people would be very happy to have air suspension that can handle as well as a KW system but have the added adjustability. That is where the extra money comes in, IMO

and FWIW MSRP may be over 4K on an airlift kit, but you will find most retailers are selling it for just a hair over 3K.

Guess I have some thinkin' to do.

[Model Citizen]

Originally Posted by Andrew@ORT

I'm not defensive at all, I understand that each person is going to have their own opinion on the topic.

However, if you're using their site for a reference guide for pricing, you're going to be paying full MSRP. There are other companies out there who sell the same kit for $3,150.

On the tit for tat end i paid about $1760 shipped for my kwv3 new.

Retail vs street price applies in both cases.

[Andrew@ORT]

Dang, that's a killer deal considering that KW has them mapped at 2299.95!

[Dustin2JZ]

I agree with what mkivalex just said. If the air suspension is MSRP 4k why would you compare it to 4k coilovers if are does soo much more. I have been leaning towards the air lift for a while now. I know they don't perform as high as coilovers can. But I'm not running SCCA or anything. I want something I can ride around slammed on and still get up my driveway. All while still being able to slide it around on the streets and have fun at an occasional Autocross.

I am glad to know that there are some people here who can help me get a good deal on the kit when I get ready. Maybe next tax season. Lol.

[Scargod]

I read everything because I'm curious as to how odd the use of bags on a track car is.
I've never considered air, nor would I. I've had MCS and JRZ two-way racing shocks with remote gas reservoirs on my STI's.
On my 2022 BRZ I have Cygnus X-1 Motorsport Edition coilovers with digressive valving and 7K Hyperco springs.

Negatives that may have been overlooked or given short shrift is the added weight of the air ride components, the added complexity, which can be problematic for racing, and the fact that adjusting the height (stiffening or softening the bags) will change the suspension geometry and all or some of it is a compromise for handling. When you change the height you are losing shock travel in compression or rebound. You can have an "ideal setup" for play racing and then performance is compromised for street use or vice-versa.
Here's

His build list is listed with the video.

[Captain Snooze]

Originally Posted by Scargod

I read everything because I'm curious as to how odd the use of bags on a track car is. [1]
I've never considered air, nor would I. I've had MCS and JRZ two-way racing shocks with remote gas reservoirs on my STI's.
On my 2022 BRZ I have Cygnus X-1 Motorsport Edition coilovers with digressive valving and 7K Hyperco springs.

Negatives that may have been overlooked or given short shrift is the added weight of the air ride components, the added complexity, which can be problematic for racing [2], and the fact that adjusting the height (stiffening or softening the bags) will change the suspension geometry and all or some of it is a compromise for handling [3]. When you change the height you are losing shock travel in compression or rebound. You can have an "ideal setup" for play racing and then performance is compromised for street use or vice-versa [4].

This is quite a necro. OP was 05-29-2014 and mkivalex hasn't been here since 06-05-2017.
1/ Bags are rare on the street so it's not surprising they're even rarer on the track. You can track day with anything. Different people, different wants.
2/ Track days are not race days.
3/ Everything's a compromise.
4/ See 3

[Scargod]

Thanks for your totally worthless post!
Your post is far worse than my necro post. I'm trying to educate the community with new info as it relates to the topic. Time is irrelevant.
What are you doing that supports the community?
Your posit #1, is not true. You can't bring anything to the Track Day party! People usually bring cars that drive decently at speed. Tech inspection can boot the posers with glam cars that are not capable of being safe at speed. Just having bags does not rule out a car. Yes, you can track your WRX, DD, family car.
#2: Track days are not race days. Call it what you want. No trophies for sure and no winners. However, if you are practicing in your BRZ for an upcoming TT then you want to do a personal best or a lap time that may get you on the podium.

When you get in the Instructors Group, or the Advanced Group, or attend a Track Day like HOD puts on, there are a lot of ex-racers with race cars. At some level they want to relive their glory days or show that they still have what it takes! You'd bettered be a good driver or GTFOOTW!

[Captain Snooze]

Originally Posted by Scargod

Thanks for your totally worthless post!
Your post is far worse than my necro post. I'm trying to educate the community with new info as it relates to the topic. Time is irrelevant.
What are you doing that supports the community?
Your posit #1, is not true. You can't bring anything to the Track Day party! People usually bring cars that drive decently at speed. Tech inspection can boot the posers with glam cars that are not capable of being safe at speed. Just having bags does not rule out a car. Yes, you can track your WRX, DD, family car.
#2: Track days are not race days. Call it what you want. No trophies for sure and no winners. However, if you are practicing in your BRZ for an upcoming TT then you want to do a personal best or a lap time that may get you on the podium.

When you get in the Instructors Group, or the Advanced Group, or attend a Track Day like HOD puts on, there are a lot of ex-racers with race cars. At some level they want to relive their glory days or show that they still have what it takes! You'd bettered be a good driver or GTFOOTW!

Thank you for your amusing reply, I enjoyed reading it.