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GR86 General Topics (2nd Gen 2022+ Toyota 86) General topics for the GR86 second-gen 86


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Old 02-02-2022, 12:50 PM   #29
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Is there any evidence of engine damage (or increased wear) as a result of "high" oil temps? I've tracked Hondas and a 991 and regularly saw temps in the 250-270 range--no trouble as long as I ran the appropriate oil for that temp (i.e. not a 20 weight).
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Old 02-02-2022, 01:08 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by sds View Post
Is there any evidence of engine damage (or increased wear) as a result of "high" oil temps? I've tracked Hondas and a 991 and regularly saw temps in the 250-270 range--no trouble as long as I ran the appropriate oil for that temp (i.e. not a 20 weight).
High temps aren't necessarily bad. Modern heavy duty engines are designed to pretty much spend their whole life at 120degc (250F) with low viscosity oils. Its just that the engine have to be designed for it and the correct oils that break down slow enough.
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Old 02-02-2022, 01:20 PM   #31
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So wouldn’t the problem be solved by getting a really good thick radiator and some 1500 cfm spal fans? That would help remove the heat the water is taking on from the oem oil “cooler”
That's assuming the coolant system is becoming overwhelmed by the added heat coming from the oil.

What is more likely is that coolant temps will remain stable, but there's a thermal transfer bottleneck between the oil cooler/heater and the coolant.

Best way to know what you need is to get oil and coolant temp gauges with properly placed sensors. Not only do you want to watch how high the oil temp gets but how long it takes to get up to operating temp on a cold start. If you "improve" the oil cooling system but end up with the side effect of slowing down the oil heating process, you'll never know without timing and knowing the typical oil heating process on a stock vehicle with factory spec'd oil. That's where the potential engine damage from overcooling comes into play.
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Old 02-02-2022, 01:53 PM   #32
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So wouldn’t the problem be solved by getting a really good thick radiator and some 1500 cfm spal fans? That would help remove the heat the water is taking on from the oem oil “cooler”
It's not quite that easy. To be anywhere near as effective as a remote cooler you'd need a larger radiator and a larger liquid-to-liquid oil cooler. The reason for this is that there's just not enough temperature delta between the coolant and oil.

I personally wouldn't go this route because it (a radiator) adds quite a bit of weight, in the worst possible spot. If you ditched the OEM oil cooler and replaced it with a remote unit, you would add only a little weight and it could be kept much lower.
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Old 02-02-2022, 01:56 PM   #33
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High temps aren't necessarily bad. Modern heavy duty engines are designed to pretty much spend their whole life at 120degc (250F) with low viscosity oils. Its just that the engine have to be designed for it and the correct oils that break down slow enough.
Designed to last only for the warranty period?
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Old 02-02-2022, 01:59 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by sds View Post
Is there any evidence of engine damage (or increased wear) as a result of "high" oil temps? I've tracked Hondas and a 991 and regularly saw temps in the 250-270 range--no trouble as long as I ran the appropriate oil for that temp (i.e. not a 20 weight).
In engines in general, yes. As temps become excessive, the oil shears down, reducing its load carrying capacity. Eventually that leads to wear, or worse.

Not a fair comparison. Honda and Porsche make much more robust engines, from a bearing and oiling standpoint. You could spit into the sump along with 7/11's finest oil and not spin a bearing with those engines
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Old 02-02-2022, 02:13 PM   #35
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My gen 1 only gets barely over 200F coolant temps at the track.
Depends on the climate, maybe?

My gen.1 splashed some coolant around the pressure release valve at Laguna Seca in summer 2019 when the car was basically stock with camber bolts. It was only my 4th track day and I was driving ~10 seconds per lap slower than the 86DC stock class record, so wasn't on the throttle as much as I could. Unfortunately, I wasn't doing coolant/oil data logging at the time to know what temp it reached.
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Old 02-02-2022, 02:13 PM   #36
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As little as I think this car "needs" an oil cooler for limited track usage, I 10x as much think it doesn't need a huge aftermarket aluminum radiator.


I am running a koyorad and saw a difference of 1-3F depending on the day lol. 100% not needed NA
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Old 02-02-2022, 04:34 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by timurrrr View Post
Depends on the climate, maybe?

My gen.1 splashed some coolant around the pressure release valve at Laguna Seca in summer 2019 when the car was basically stock with camber bolts. It was only my 4th track day and I was driving ~10 seconds per lap slower than the 86DC stock class record, so wasn't on the throttle as much as I could. Unfortunately, I wasn't doing coolant/oil data logging at the time to know what temp it reached.
My car's coolant was around 210F and oil at 265F Sonoma with a pace 15sec slower than stock class lap record in 2019 fall before I installed the Jackson Racing dual radiator/cooler. The cooler came with a larger CSF radiator, which increase the capacity of engine coolant cooling. Currently with a pace at 2secs slower than stock class lap record with same tires in a similar ambient temperature, the coolant rarely breaks 200F.

I think for the question whether oil cooler is needed really depends on how one tracks the car, what is one's target wear rate of the engine. We all know the HSTS and oil pressure will drop after oil heats up. Both value are crucially related to engine wear. And FA20 is known to pull timing (which drops the engine power) when oil gets heat. I go to track over 20 events per year and I would like my car can be pushed every lap I am in the session without compromises in the engine performance (tires might not keep up though). And here in California, 100F ambient temperature is quite normal in summer days. Then for me, adding better cooling is the logical choice. I do used oil analysis every time I changed oil. So far, the engine wear didn't increase even though I put much more track miles than 2 years ago when the car was mostly for streets.

For folks who said oil coolers are not needed. You might be right. No matter better cooling or not, the engine will eventually fail as long as it is being used and when the engine wear accumulated to a certain level. it is just a matter of how soon that will happen. It's your car and it's your choice to treat it in your own way. But please remember factory 86 spec race cars do use oil coolers with original engine internals. If one wants to use the car in a similar working conditions, that is a very good reference point. I wish I could buy these factory backed racecars directly from Toyota in US so I don't need to build my own.
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Old 02-03-2022, 03:10 PM   #38
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Designed to last only for the warranty period?
More like 1500000- 2000000 km these days.. Which a FA20 obviously isn't, sometimes i wish they chose Toyota to do engine instead.

I will run without oil cooler for now, but i will only do short stints on track, and maybe once or twice per season, and we definitely won't see 100F here in the North. But would probably go for a cooler if it was my track day car.
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Old 02-04-2022, 02:50 AM   #39
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Food for thought:

EDM GT86, MY2015.

Setup:

Dialed out custom Stage2 tune (UEL header), 0W_20 (Eneos, ILSAC GF5, API SN), without oil cooler.

Route:

7 km of spirited driving on a mountain road. Mostly 2nd and 3rd gear.

Result:

Seized engine --> spun bearing on conrod #1 + damaged crankshaft and cylinder wall.

https://i.imgur.com/uQtmKtS.jpeg

Lessons learned:

Using Ravenol's PAO/Ester 5W_40 and 5W_50 engine oil now (both used by Gazoo/TMG in Europe) + HKS oil cooler.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Regarding the usage of an additional oil cooler on top of the OE water-oil heat exchanger on the GR86/BRZ22, I agree with Mike from CSG.

We've tested the Subaru copper heat exhanger on a couple of cars. It's better than not having a cooler, but 10+ min track stints and extended spirited driving overtax the small heat exhanger.

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Old 02-04-2022, 10:39 AM   #40
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Food for thought:
EDM GT86, MY2015.
Setup:
Dialed out custom Stage2 tune (UEL header), 0W_20 (Eneos, ILSAC GF5, API SN), without oil cooler.
Route:
7 km of spirited driving on a mountain road. Mostly 2nd and 3rd gear.

Result:
Seized engine --> spun bearing on conrod #1 + damaged crankshaft and cylinder wall.
7km of "spirited driving" in 2nd and 3rd gears, so maybe 5 minutes? There are countless FT86s (mine included) that spend a LOT more time than that at the track at 270+F oil temps without coolers, covering a lot more km/miles, repeatedly, year after year...

I wouldn't conclude that this failure is due to "no oil cooler", when plenty of these failures have happened *with* oil coolers. Of course you should run oil appropriate for operational oil temperatures, were you monitoring oil temps? 0w20 not best choice for "spirited driving" in warm weather but still, for 5 minutes at a time on the street it shouldn't be a problem, given adequate oil delivery.

If adequate oil supply isn't being delivered to the bearings, it doesn't matter if the oil is at 270F or at 235F, bad things are eventually gonna happen. These engines are apparently pretty marginal on oil feed to bearings to begin with, production tolerances could result in some living decently longish lives at the track while others fail early on.

Particularly given the type of usage, I don't think lack of an oil cooler was the root cause of the problem here...
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Old 02-06-2022, 09:09 AM   #41
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Hey, Dan

Disclaimer:

I don't want to start a tribology war and I was just stating my experience
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I completely agree with you, there are multiple cars without oil coolers that covered a lot of miles, faultless in the lubrication/oil film strength department.

The oil temperature was hovering around 135-140°C at that particular stint.

Would an appropriate engine oil with a higher oil film strength prevent the damage? I think it would.

Would lower engine oil temperatures increase the shear strength of the oil film? They probably would.

On top of having an oil cooler and higher quality engine oil (Group IV and V) I've also installed an oil pressure monitoring device consisting out of an oil pressure sensor and modified Ecutek tables. If oil pressure drops under a certain pre-determined level, my CEL flashes to warn me, if I continue with the hooning, a fuel cut is executed.

It's overkill, I know, but it's an extra step of ensuring I don't repeat the same mistake
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Old 02-07-2022, 12:20 PM   #42
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I was reading a review of the 22 Subaru Forester Wilderness that states it has an air-to-oil cooler, which is one of the upgrades over standard Foresters that enables its 3000 lb tow rating (the other two upgrades being larger front brakes and a heavier duty transmission). Standard Forester tow rating is 1500 lbs.

I wonder how this oil cooler is designed, if it's anything like the 2nd gen GR86/BRZ water-to-oil cooler, and if it could be easily adapted to the FA24 engine.
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