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Old 12-08-2020, 11:46 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Wally86 View Post
Model S is 80k for 410mi range.

EDIT: Heck, the model 3 is 47k for 360mi range.
Not really the same price (Model S) or twice the range (Model 3) but that's OK. Like I said, that's why it's good more options are coming out.

If Tesla was the only true option, I'd never own an EV. They just don't pass my first test, I have to like the way the car looks. It's not a Tesla specific thing, it's a design language thing. They offer nothing in my car price range I would be willing to drive.
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Old 12-08-2020, 12:05 PM   #16
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Not really the same price (Model S) or twice the range (Model 3) but that's OK. Like I said, that's why it's good more options are coming out.

If Tesla was the only true option, I'd never own an EV. They just don't pass my first test, I have to like the way the car looks. It's not a Tesla specific thing, it's a design language thing. They offer nothing in my car price range I would be willing to drive.
At this point... I think every electric car is ugly. I hope they get better looking but until batteries make some leap, we're stuck oddball skateboards housing low drag coefficient bodies.

I like the rivian truck but it's vaporware.

The best looking car out right now is the toyota 86


EDIT: Totally forgot: Jaguar iPace 70k/76k/81k for the three models.
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Old 12-08-2020, 12:16 PM   #17
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At this point... I think every electric car is ugly. I hope they get better looking but until batteries make some leap, we're stuck oddball skateboards housing low drag coefficient bodies.
Fair point, there are some I could live with, but I wouldn't call them beautiful.

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EDIT: Totally forgot: Jaguar iPace 70k/76k/81k for the three models.
Yea, that's list but I've seen them for as much as $10K below list. Jag had them listed for less last month, although now the deal is around financing.
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Old 12-08-2020, 03:11 PM   #18
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Not to throw in an endless debate and ethics, but does swapping to a complete line up of EVs REALLY out weight the environmental effects of pollution?
In places that generate clean, renewable electricity, yes. Not in Australia though, where we burn lots of coal for baseload power in many states.
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Old 12-08-2020, 03:39 PM   #19
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There are not enough materials to go around
If we dump the things into landfill at end of life, that’s true. But almost everything can be recycled and reused... if it can be made cost effective. That’s they key barrier to wider scale recycling... that and the energy it requires.

We also need a change in thinking, from mindless consumerism and ‘engineered obsolesence’ to keeping, repairing and upgrading things instead of always buying a brand new one. Manufacturers (with consumers support) themselves have driven much of this waste and depletion of materials by engineering in obsolescence into their products, giving them a deliberately shorter life because they want to sell more new ones.

When it is cheaper to throw something away and buy a new one, instead of repair or upgrade the existing one, there is an inherently bad and wasteful incentive built in. We probably need to move away from ‘buying’ to ‘leasing’ for many products with rare elements in them so that there are strong financial incentives for the manufacturer to make the product last as long as possible in order to reap the greatest financial return.

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And let's also be clear, the power grid of absolutely no country is ready for even 10% of its population to have ev's, never mind 50% or more.
You might want to look at Europe, where some countries, like Norway, have reached significant EV penetration. Norway passed 10% of its fleet as EVs in 2018, and in 2019 56% of newly bought vehicles were EVs. So far their power grid hasn’t collapsed.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plug...cles_in_Norway

But sure, for most countries significant changes to infrastructure are required. Ideally we need everyone generating power locally with support from base load power as a backup, instead of relying on centralised base load generation only.

The obvious thing in a country like Australia is solar - every home should have it, and with sufficient panels and battery backup, most homes could be self sufficient... including charging their EV off their own power.

Even the design of EVs should factor this in... PV tech has advanced to the stage where not only could all the body panels be PV cells, but even the glass could as well. The car could literally be recharging itself as it rolls down the road, or sits parked outside.

Yes, it would be expensive, so govts would have to step up and heavily subsidise it until economies of scale made it cost effective. But much is possible if we leverage both science and govt to support it.
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Old 12-08-2020, 03:42 PM   #20
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There are not enough materials to go around unless we start mining asteroids and hit pay dirt on a massive one full of rare earth elements. And let's also be clear, the power grid of absolutely no country is ready for even 10% of its population to have ev's, never mind 50% or more.
Did you watch the Tesla battery day? If not then watch that and get back to me.

Only a small percentage of new cars are purchased each year (6.1%). Only a fraction of cars currently sold are electric. In five years if 100% of new passenger vehicles sold are EVs (unlikely) then it would still take 15-20 years for total adoption. Unless there is a mandate that all vehicles on the road be electric then 100% adoption may take another 100+ years following a typical S-adoption curve. There is time for utilities to scale is my point.
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Old 12-08-2020, 04:31 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Dadhawk View Post
Not really the same price (Model S) or twice the range (Model 3) but that's OK. Like I said, that's why it's good more options are coming out.

If Tesla was the only true option, I'd never own an EV. They just don't pass my first test, I have to like the way the car looks. It's not a Tesla specific thing, it's a design language thing. They offer nothing in my car price range I would be willing to drive.
Teslas are everywhere here, so I see them all the time from all angles. I'd only be willing to drive the most recent MY S because it looks somewhat sharp, but all the older versions of it, plus the X's, Y's, and 3's look so bulky/bulbous and unwieldy. Yack.
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Old 12-08-2020, 08:21 PM   #22
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Teslas are everywhere here, so I see them all the time from all angles. I'd only be willing to drive the most recent MY S because it looks somewhat sharp, but all the older versions of it, plus the X's, Y's, and 3's look so bulky/bulbous and unwieldy. Yack.
Yea, lots of them here as well, believe it or not, GA has a large EV adoption rate. I see probably 5 Teslas for every 86 i see in a given week.

At least the CyberTruck has character, the rest were designed by used soap bar modeling.
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Old 12-08-2020, 09:54 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Red-86 View Post
If we dump the things into landfill at end of life, that’s true. But almost everything can be recycled and reused... if it can be made cost effective. That’s they key barrier to wider scale recycling... that and the energy it requires.

We also need a change in thinking, from mindless consumerism and ‘engineered obsolesence’ to keeping, repairing and upgrading things instead of always buying a brand new one. Manufacturers (with consumers support) themselves have driven much of this waste and depletion of materials by engineering in obsolescence into their products, giving them a deliberately shorter life because they want to sell more new ones.

When it is cheaper to throw something away and buy a new one, instead of repair or upgrade the existing one, there is an inherently bad and wasteful incentive built in. We probably need to move away from ‘buying’ to ‘leasing’ for many products with rare elements in them so that there are strong financial incentives for the manufacturer to make the product last as long as possible in order to reap the greatest financial return.
time is circular!

we saw this in the 80's to early 2000's. the american domestics started floundering in comfort of the 'locked down' market of the 50's, 60's, and 70's.
besides the gas crunch, their quality and reliability standards relaxed, and it gave the opportunity for korean and japanese brands to step in.

the european parliament ins introducing right-to-repair legislation with the requirement that products be labelled with expected lifetime and repairability information, long-term availability of parts:
https://hackaday.com/2020/12/02/euro...rating-system/



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You might want to look at Europe, where some countries, like Norway, have reached significant EV penetration. Norway passed 10% of its fleet as EVs in 2018, and in 2019 56% of newly bought vehicles were EVs. So far their power grid hasn’t collapsed.
meh, norway is a very oddball situation. the government literally paid the population to go electric. most of it is set to expire in 2021 last i checked. there was no VAT, and very heavy discounts on parking, tolls, and ferries, and special lane access.

a guy i used to talk to in norway ended up in a very nicely equipped tesla. he had said at the time all the tolls, parking, bus lane access, and tax reductions amounted to the car costing about half it normally would out of pocket for the year compared to any ICE vehicle, and he could still get those discounts for multiple years, making the car essentially free compared to the cost of driving an ICE in the same scenario.

https://elbil.no/english/norwegian-e...0roads%20(2019)


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Originally Posted by Red-86 View Post
The obvious thing in a country like Australia is solar - every home should have it, and with sufficient panels and battery backup, most homes could be self sufficient... including charging their EV off their own power.

Even the design of EVs should factor this in... PV tech has advanced to the stage where not only could all the body panels be PV cells, but even the glass could as well. The car could literally be recharging itself as it rolls down the road, or sits parked outside.
everyone pushes solar really hard...
https://hackaday.com/2020/12/02/the-...f-solar-power/

also important to remember, solar works best in a very narrow range:
https://blog.spiritenergy.co.uk/cont...olar-panels-uk

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Non-optimal roof angles
Of course if your roof isn’t optimally oriented it’s helpful to understand how much output your system will lose relative to optimum. In the UK the output varies as you vary the orientation and the slope as follows. South facing, 30-40 degree slope gives the maximum (100%), all other outputs are given as percentages relative to this:

Solar performance by angle

Even facing the panels South East instead of South loses 5% of annual output. Facing them East at an angle of 30-40° loses around 20% relative to facing them South.

And sticking them on a vertical south facing wall reduces the output by 30% relative to a 30-40 degree slope.
and none of this even gets into the battery tech and maintenance that would be required to store the energy for re-use later.
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Old 12-09-2020, 07:41 AM   #24
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meh, norway is a very oddball situation. the government literally paid the population to go electric. most of it is set to expire in 2021 last i checked. there was no VAT, and very heavy discounts on parking, tolls, and ferries, and special lane access..
Not to mention Norway, in terms of geographic size, is about 50% of the size of Texas, and has a population of about 19.7M less people than Texas. (5M vs 25M).
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Old 12-09-2020, 09:19 AM   #25
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Any region/group of countries that decommissions nuclear power generation won't be taken seriously by me. Let's not forget that the EU has started importing electricity generated by coal plants in China.
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Old 12-09-2020, 09:35 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by why? View Post
There are not enough materials to go around unless we start mining asteroids and hit pay dirt on a massive one full of rare earth elements. And let's also be clear, the power grid of absolutely no country is ready for even 10% of its population to have ev's, never mind 50% or more.
This is the main reason that Toyota is aiming on hybrids, not full BEV (based on current battery technologies).

With that said, this can change in the future.
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Old 12-09-2020, 10:16 AM   #27
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If we dump the things into landfill at end of life, that’s true. But almost everything can be recycled and reused... if it can be made cost effective. That’s they key barrier to wider scale recycling... that and the energy it requires.

We also need a change in thinking, from mindless consumerism and ‘engineered obsolesence’ to keeping, repairing and upgrading things instead of always buying a brand new one. Manufacturers (with consumers support) themselves have driven much of this waste and depletion of materials by engineering in obsolescence into their products, giving them a deliberately shorter life because they want to sell more new ones.

When it is cheaper to throw something away and buy a new one, instead of repair or upgrade the existing one, there is an inherently bad and wasteful incentive built in. We probably need to move away from ‘buying’ to ‘leasing’ for many products with rare elements in them so that there are strong financial incentives for the manufacturer to make the product last as long as possible in order to reap the greatest financial return.



You might want to look at Europe, where some countries, like Norway, have reached significant EV penetration. Norway passed 10% of its fleet as EVs in 2018, and in 2019 56% of newly bought vehicles were EVs. So far their power grid hasn’t collapsed.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plug...cles_in_Norway

But sure, for most countries significant changes to infrastructure are required. Ideally we need everyone generating power locally with support from base load power as a backup, instead of relying on centralised base load generation only.

The obvious thing in a country like Australia is solar - every home should have it, and with sufficient panels and battery backup, most homes could be self sufficient... including charging their EV off their own power.

Even the design of EVs should factor this in... PV tech has advanced to the stage where not only could all the body panels be PV cells, but even the glass could as well. The car could literally be recharging itself as it rolls down the road, or sits parked outside.

Yes, it would be expensive, so govts would have to step up and heavily subsidise it until economies of scale made it cost effective. But much is possible if we leverage both science and govt to support it.
1st: no, cars are not being tossed earlier. Average vehicle life has increase on the past years, and this trend will continue with improved materials and design. BEV vehicles probably will help on that also.

2nd: leasing option is referred on the video. Toyota and other OEMs sees the financial benefits of the complete lifecycle, which will be good for business and may also be good for environment.

3rd: I think that home solar panels is the way to go. It got a hit when Spain passed some laws trying to prohibit that, but I hope no other country follows same path.
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Old 12-09-2020, 10:19 PM   #28
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1st: no, cars are not being tossed earlier. Average vehicle life has increase on the past years, and this trend will continue with improved materials and design. BEV vehicles probably will help on that also.
they're sure not making it easy to keep a car over 10 years though.

https://insideevs.com/news/376037/te...-memory-issue/

https://www.thedrive.com/news/34547/...tion-no-really
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