2013 Subaru BRZ and 2013 Scion FR-S: A Study in Comparison and Contrast

[Zaku]

if 26K is the guesstimate beginning MSRP what's a good guesstimate for the national average for the Invoice with frieght and stuff?

[brzmaybe]

At this point, we have a number of opinions to work with. I checked the other reviews we've compiled.

Automobile magazine: "The BRZ settles into steady-state understeer, but don’t let that fool you: the standard limited-slip differential allows you to nix that handily. Indeed under heavy throttle, the BRZ goes -- and stays -- neutral, and is incredibly easy to control at the limit. Breakaway at the rear is slow, deliberate, and progressive;..."

Autoweek: "If driven wimpily, you will say the 2013 BRZ understeers, which is true. But if tossed gleefully into corners like you really mean it, you will find that the BRZ first understeers and then oversteers, depending on how sensitive you are to the car's balance. Our first laps around Subaru's Tochigi handling course and giant skidpad were done a little too gingerly, since it was still a little damp and there is just about no runoff on the road course. There's where we felt the understeer. Subsequent laps, driven with greater throttle input, demonstrated a delightful balance that allowed us to hang the tail out by lifting off to bring the back end over then getting back on it to keep it hanging out there. The transition was as easy and progressive as we wanted to make it."

Motor Trend: "That is not to say push is entirely absent. Apparently, for safety reasons, understeer is the default condition when you get sloppy. It's easy to induce through early turn-in, which causes the front outside tire to roll over and howl unhappily as the nose plows.

As a credit to the BRZ's balance, oversteer is a cinch to find as well. Flick the wheel while adding too much throttle, and the back end will break away in a progressive, predictable fashion. "

EVO: "But it’s corners that make the BRZ special – even wet ones – with a beautifully poised chassis that talks to the driver through exceptionally communicative electric power steering. Take too much speed into a corner and there’s well-flagged understeer, but judge your entry speed right and then use the immediately reactive throttle to bring the car to the point where the rear tyres are just running out of grip and it’s clear that this is a car that really wants to play."

Bottom line? Sounds like the preproduction BRZ's understeer. They can be drifted with precision and confidence. If we're concerned, we can equalize the front-rear tire pressure and perhaps add a bit more rear anti-sway bar.

[ForReal-Someday]

Thanks for the replies. Looks like from the articles BRZMAYBE has compiled I'll have to try learning how to drive first... Then maybe start changing things up.

[tachi1247]

Originally Posted by tranzformer

We have talked a lot about pricing in the past basically to the point of

But I was hoping $24-24.5k for the premium and $26k for the limited. FRS at $22-22.5k.

There are more than $1500 worth of options in the limited package. Probably closer to $2750 if purchased separately so I'm betting that package will be at least $2k. Probably end Up at some stupid number like $2125.

[Deslock]

Originally Posted by brzmaybe

At this point, we have a number of opinions to work with. I checked the other reviews we've compiled.

Automobile magazine: "The BRZ settles into steady-state understeer, but don’t let that fool you: the standard limited-slip differential allows you to nix that handily. Indeed under heavy throttle, the BRZ goes -- and stays -- neutral, and is incredibly easy to control at the limit. Breakaway at the rear is slow, deliberate, and progressive;..."

Autoweek: "If driven wimpily, you will say the 2013 BRZ understeers, which is true. But if tossed gleefully into corners like you really mean it, you will find that the BRZ first understeers and then oversteers, depending on how sensitive you are to the car's balance. Our first laps around Subaru's Tochigi handling course and giant skidpad were done a little too gingerly, since it was still a little damp and there is just about no runoff on the road course. There's where we felt the understeer. Subsequent laps, driven with greater throttle input, demonstrated a delightful balance that allowed us to hang the tail out by lifting off to bring the back end over then getting back on it to keep it hanging out there. The transition was as easy and progressive as we wanted to make it."

Motor Trend: "That is not to say push is entirely absent. Apparently, for safety reasons, understeer is the default condition when you get sloppy. It's easy to induce through early turn-in, which causes the front outside tire to roll over and howl unhappily as the nose plows.

As a credit to the BRZ's balance, oversteer is a cinch to find as well. Flick the wheel while adding too much throttle, and the back end will break away in a progressive, predictable fashion. "

EVO: "But it’s corners that make the BRZ special – even wet ones – with a beautifully poised chassis that talks to the driver through exceptionally communicative electric power steering. Take too much speed into a corner and there’s well-flagged understeer, but judge your entry speed right and then use the immediately reactive throttle to bring the car to the point where the rear tyres are just running out of grip and it’s clear that this is a car that really wants to play."

Bottom line? Sounds like the preproduction BRZ's understeer. They can be drifted with precision and confidence. If we're concerned, we can equalize the front-rear tire pressure and perhaps add a bit more rear anti-sway bar.

Thanks for compiling that.

[delongedoug]

Originally Posted by Deslock

Thanks for compiling that.

+1

Finally, a comparison of the US models without all the cloudiness about "Well that's the JDM spec BRZ and we're not getting the Toyota interior and their car weighs that and MPGs don't translate, etc".

And Dave's right, some simple suspension mods will correct any unwanted understeer and there are many pieces of the puzzle to rearrange to accomplish that.

I'm going to continue waiting until final pricing to join the "sky is falling" brigade that dominates the forums. Fact is, though, if a Limited is going to be creeping unto the upper $20ks, I might look for more bang for my buck like a used 335. Doubtful, though.

[Sabastian]

Originally Posted by brzmaybe

At this point, we have a number of opinions to work with. I checked the other reviews we've compiled.

Automobile magazine: "The BRZ settles into steady-state understeer, but don’t let that fool you: the standard limited-slip differential allows you to nix that handily. Indeed under heavy throttle, the BRZ goes -- and stays -- neutral, and is incredibly easy to control at the limit. Breakaway at the rear is slow, deliberate, and progressive;..."

Autoweek: "If driven wimpily, you will say the 2013 BRZ understeers, which is true. But if tossed gleefully into corners like you really mean it, you will find that the BRZ first understeers and then oversteers, depending on how sensitive you are to the car's balance. Our first laps around Subaru's Tochigi handling course and giant skidpad were done a little too gingerly, since it was still a little damp and there is just about no runoff on the road course. There's where we felt the understeer. Subsequent laps, driven with greater throttle input, demonstrated a delightful balance that allowed us to hang the tail out by lifting off to bring the back end over then getting back on it to keep it hanging out there. The transition was as easy and progressive as we wanted to make it."

Motor Trend: "That is not to say push is entirely absent. Apparently, for safety reasons, understeer is the default condition when you get sloppy. It's easy to induce through early turn-in, which causes the front outside tire to roll over and howl unhappily as the nose plows.

As a credit to the BRZ's balance, oversteer is a cinch to find as well. Flick the wheel while adding too much throttle, and the back end will break away in a progressive, predictable fashion. "

EVO: "But it’s corners that make the BRZ special – even wet ones – with a beautifully poised chassis that talks to the driver through exceptionally communicative electric power steering. Take too much speed into a corner and there’s well-flagged understeer, but judge your entry speed right and then use the immediately reactive throttle to bring the car to the point where the rear tyres are just running out of grip and it’s clear that this is a car that really wants to play."

Bottom line? Sounds like the preproduction BRZ's understeer. They can be drifted with precision and confidence. If we're concerned, we can equalize the front-rear tire pressure and perhaps add a bit more rear anti-sway bar.

Kudos on the well-researched reply. To be honest, a little understeer is kind of appealing to me. If I buy one of the AS1 cars, I will likely be holding on to my NA Miata, and I only really want one twitchy, nervous car in my life.

[SUB-FT86]

I can't wait to see and drive the FR-S. I still can't believe there is going to be a RWD version of a RSX and Celica GT-S. These was the only two FWD coupes I liked 7 years ago. I also liked the Integra minus the interior.

[maxeveland]

what does understeer mean

[dsgerbc]

^ It means you get to see the tree you're gonna crash into.

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by maxeveland

what does understeer mean

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=what+is+understeer

[Zaku]

Thinking back... I remember how almost on a monthly basis over on s2ki back in the day someone would post they've wrecked their AP1 S2000, because of the neutral handling and twitchiness. Those cars are great for people for driving experience, not so sure how I feel about how the car ended up as a SCION and is marketed to be first car for younger enthusiast. I wouldn't be surprised if it became regular for us to in the future that we hear FRS in wrecks. Alot of us know not to over steer on our streets and to do the drifting in a correct place. But at the same time a lot of others don't.

Also alot of people will lower the car, changing out the springs and or put in coil overs even change the wheel wouldn't this change the handle characteristic anyways. That Neutral FRS might not be so any more with some minor change. Not sure why these reviewers were so inclined to say some of these things, we know some magazines get only about... 20 min with them some get like 2 laps. Not really enough for a good review, more like initial impressions.

[SUB-FT86]

Originally Posted by Zaku

Thinking back... I remember how almost on a monthly basis over on s2ki back in the day someone would post they've wrecked their AP1 S2000, because of the neutral handling and twitchiness. Those cars are great for people for driving experience, not so sure how I feel about how the car ended up as a SCION and is marketed to be first car for younger enthusiast. I wouldn't be surprised if it became regular for us to in the future that we hear FRS in wrecks. Alot of us know not to over steer on our streets and to do the drifting in a correct place. But at the same time a lot of others don't.

Also alot of people will lower the car, changing out the springs and or put in coil overs even change the wheel wouldn't this change the handle characteristic anyways. That Neutral FRS might not be so any more with some minor change. Not sure why these reviewers were so inclined to say some of these things, we know some magazines get only about... 20 min with them some get like 2 laps. Not really enough for a good review, more like initial impressions.

People need to just leave on the TCS on regular streets. I will since I am not a experienced driver.

[WingsofWar]

Clarkson: So you think that a car is more fun....because it crashes more easily.
May: Yes!