Oil Cooler/Reliability Mods

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by ZionsWrath

Is there any data on effects on running oil below operating temp for prolonged periods?
With JR oil cooler I could not reach operating temp on the street without hooning, it would stay around 170 even blocked off with a cardboard.
But it performed flawlessly on the track.

Completely blocked? At what ambient temp? I wouldn't go with any less than the JR unit. It's about perfect for a thermostatically controlled system.

[jflogerzi]

Originally Posted by ZionsWrath

Is there any data on effects on running oil below operating temp for prolonged periods?
With JR oil cooler I could not reach operating temp on the street without hooning, it would stay around 170 even blocked off with a cardboard.
But it performed flawlessly on the track.

remember these temps are post cooler. Pre temps will be 10-20F more at least. So you are probably just fine at that range.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by racingfool

Interesting article.
But, the question I have is, what is the minimum oil temp before driving it hard up to redline (full synthetic)?
I was hoping for a bit more info with that title.

@EndlessAzure reccomended 160F seems prudent. However if running 20 or 30 weight I wouldn't be averse to going to redline once coolant is up to temp, even if oil is a bit below that...

Originally Posted by ZionsWrath

Is there any data on effects on running oil below operating temp for prolonged periods?
With JR oil cooler I could not reach operating temp on the street without hooning, it would stay around 170 even blocked off with a cardboard.
But it performed flawlessly on the track.

The writer said he wouldn't want to routinely see less than 200F, but I've always heard/read that even at 180F moisture will evaporate out of the oil. My oil temp stabilizes at indicated 190F under light street usage, I would bet that is warm enough temp to drive moisture out with some margin.

170F seems a bit on the low side... If worried you could send oil out for analysis.

FWIW I drove surface streets across town mid-morning, very light traffic, taking it very easy, shifting ~3500-4000, probably never exceeded 40mph. 58F ambient temp, oil got up to normal operating 190F indicated in 12 minutes.

[racingfool]

Originally Posted by ZDan

wouldn't be averse to going to redline once coolant is up to temp, even if oil is a bit below that...

the general consensus among most racers is that hot oil and cool water make more power in most engines.

This is interesting. Wonder what is considered cool, under 150f? under 200f?

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by racingfool

This is interesting. Wonder what is considered cool, under 150f? under 200f?

Aftermarket 160F thermostats have been the thing for GM V8s for a long time now, vs. 190F factory thermostats.

[EndlessAzure]

Originally Posted by ZDan

@EndlessAzure reccomended 160F seems prudent. However if running 20 or 30 weight I wouldn't be averse to going to redline once coolant is up to temp, even if oil is a bit below that...





The writer said he wouldn't want to routinely see less than 200F, but I've always heard/read that even at 180F moisture will evaporate out of the oil. My oil temp stabilizes at indicated 190F under light street usage, I would bet that is warm enough temp to drive moisture out with some margin.



170F seems a bit on the low side... If worried you could send oil out for analysis.



FWIW I drove surface streets across town mid-morning, very light traffic, taking it very easy, shifting ~3500-4000, probably never exceeded 40mph. 58F ambient temp, oil got up to normal operating 190F indicated in 12 minutes.

The oil temp lags coolant by quite a bit. Would exercise caution
@racingfool

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by ZionsWrath

Is there any data on effects on running oil below operating temp for prolonged periods?
With JR oil cooler I could not reach operating temp on the street without hooning, it would stay around 170 even blocked off with a cardboard.
But it performed flawlessly on the track.

remember your reading is post-cooler, not pre-cooler.

[M0nk3y]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

remember your reading is post-cooler, not pre-cooler.

And those readings would line right up with a thermostatic valve


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by EndlessAzure

The oil temp lags coolant by quite a bit. Would exercise caution

Personally, I wouldn't worry at all about revving to redline once coolant is fully warmed up. Guaranteed the oil isn't *cold* at that point, and 0W or 5W should be flowing well enough.

S2000 (no oil temp or pressure gauges) only allowed full rpm range once coolant got up to normal, I probably zinged it to 9000 several times only just after that point. Engine still was goin strong at 240k miles and probably 50 track days when I sold it for BRZ.

Originally Posted by jflogerzi

remember these temps are post cooler. Pre temps will be 10-20F more at least. So you are probably just fine at that range.

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

remember your reading is post-cooler, not pre-cooler.

The concern is oil going into the engine being "too cool", right? That would be oil temp after the cooler.
[edit]Oh yeah, the real concern (I think) is oil never getting hot enough to boil off moisture, in which case yeah, if the hot side of the cooler is getting up to 180-190ish, that's probably OK...

Originally Posted by M0nk3y

And those readings would line right up with a thermostatic valve

I've heard that temps are a lot slower to get to normal operating range even with a valve due to additional plumbing and perhaps some flow past valve?

But again, with 0W or 5W oil, I wouldn't worry about going to redline once coolant is up to temp.

Still, the more I research and learn about the whole oil cooler thing, the more I think *most* of us who track our street/daily cars semi-casually for shortish stints might actually be better off without one...

[Dzmitry]

Love this subject, and it never ends haha. Definitely some good key points coming from a couple people here. I think one more somewhat important thing I'd like to add is recalling oil viscosity and its change in relation to temperature variances (though I'm sure you are all quite understanding of it). At cooler temps, you see exponential viscosity changes, hence why oil pressure change is significant between startup and operating oil temps. Once you are moving past these operating temps, oil viscosity changes less and less (significantly). We are talking less than 1 cSt for every 5-10F. So changes in oil pressure are small between say 220F and 275F as a random example.

The above statement is, of course, generalized as it has been proven that with our cars, oil pressure can vary from 70 down to 40 psi from 185 up to 225F respectively. Realistically, from every bit of research people have posted about this car, there is still not enough information. But our cars do hold up quite well with lightweight oils even when they take a beating.

I think the most important thing still holds that a couple people mentioned here, which is having proper oil pressure at whatever temperature you are at. I believe a solid part of the reason that we are able to get away with having poor pressures at times has a lot to do with the quality of synthetic oils today, which is where ZDan and many others have been an example to not having issues. His reason for passing on an oil cooler is the same as mine, as I did not want to add other risks, and data flowing around on this forum has proven that an oil cooler isn't necessary (depending on driving/tracking style/amount).

Though I cringe to think that consistent 272F can be normal and safe for our cars, I can see how it could hold up with good oil and shorter change intervals. Interested to see if you ever encounter problems down the road, and at what point of the cars life they would occur. I am following a similar route of staying away from a cooler and plan to drive the car to its death, so maybe I can have some useful information on my reliability many years down the road when no one will care anyway.

[M0nk3y]

FWIW, I have had 2 oil changes with no oil cooler.

I've had 2 oil changes w/forester coolant cooler

I've had 2 oil changes w/Perrin cooler.

Car went from DD, to AutoX DD, to Track DD. I just got my best oil sample back to date with a couple track weekends on it on a Perrin Cooler.

[EndlessAzure]

Originally Posted by ZDan

Personally, I wouldn't worry at all about revving to redline once coolant is fully warmed up. Guaranteed the oil isn't *cold* at that point, and 0W or 5W should be flowing well enough.

S2000 (no oil temp or pressure gauges) only allowed full rpm range once coolant got up to normal, I probably zinged it to 9000 several times only just after that point. Engine still was goin strong at 240k miles and probably 50 track days when I sold it for BRZ.



The concern is oil going into the engine being "too cool", right? That would be oil temp after the cooler.
[edit]Oh yeah, the real concern (I think) is oil never getting hot enough to boil off moisture, in which case yeah, if the hot side of the cooler is getting up to 180-190ish, that's probably OK...


I've heard that temps are a lot slower to get to normal operating range even with a valve due to additional plumbing and perhaps some flow past valve?

But again, with 0W or 5W oil, I wouldn't worry about going to redline once coolant is up to temp.

Still, the more I research and learn about the whole oil cooler thing, the more I think *most* of us who track our street/daily cars semi-casually for shortish stints might actually be better off without one...

S2k come with built in water-to-oil cooler/HEX

[TommyW]

Originally Posted by M0nk3y

FWIW, I have had 2 oil changes with no oil cooler.

I've had 2 oil changes w/forester coolant cooler

I've had 2 oil changes w/Perrin cooler.

Car went from DD, to AutoX DD, to Track DD. I just got my best oil sample back to date with a couple track weekends on it on a Perrin Cooler.

The Perrin's are good. I've had 2 on my car. The first one had to be replaced due to metal shaving in the motor after the dealer destroyed the motor during recall surgery.

[Dzmitry]

Originally Posted by M0nk3y

FWIW, I have had 2 oil changes with no oil cooler.

I've had 2 oil changes w/forester coolant cooler

I've had 2 oil changes w/Perrin cooler.

Car went from DD, to AutoX DD, to Track DD. I just got my best oil sample back to date with a couple track weekends on it on a Perrin Cooler.

So a good question then, is how much better is this "best" oil sample? Are we talking any big numbers here that could result in an engine lasting 50k vs 100k miles or are they insignificant?