22GR/BRZ Oil Temps

[SCFD]

Originally Posted by ZDan

Hmm, what track and ambient temps have you seen close to 300F? FWIW I go to New Hampshire Motor Speedway, Palmer Motorsports Park, Thompson Speedway, Watkins Glen, and Mont Tremblant. Hottest days at Thompson, ~95F. 987.2 2.9 Cayman would overheat after a few laps, but the BRZ ('17 gen1) has always held at 200F coolant, 275F oil.

It was at Toronto Motorsports Park and the car peaked at 296F oil and 209F coolant 7 laps into the session (each lap about 1:30). I don't know what the ambient temp was like but couldn't have been hotter than 90F.

[blsfrs]

Originally Posted by ZDan

I have the oil changed every ~6 track hours and ~3000-5000 street miles, my oil's not seeing anything like 25 hours of track time. If I was running 24hr endurance events I *might* consider an oil cooler, but I think I'd first run one and compare before/after oil analysis. Good 5w30 or 40 synth should still be in good shape after 25 hours... Would have to weigh benefit vs. risk of cooler. If there's little benefit, prolly not worth the risk of having a fragile heat exchanger and multiple additional oil lines that could be vulnerable in the event of getting banged around...

My 25 hours reference is from CSG:


CSG's recommended scheduled maintenance for track-oriented Subaru BRZ / Toyota 86

For cars being regularly raced or taken to track days, we recommend a more agressive maintenance schedule.
Suggested change intervals are at mileage or age, whichever comes first
Engine Oil & Filter: every 25 hours or 3000 miles / 5000 Km. Consider sending out your used oil for analysis to monitor wear on your engine and help you determine optimal oil change intervals for your applicationWe recommend using motorsports-grade engine oil from manufacturers like Pakelo or Motul. Unless you know for certain that you need a specific oil weight for your racing or off-road application, you should use oil with the viscosity grade recommended by Toyota or Subaru in the owner's manual of your car. This is usually SAE 0W-20 for most regions.


IMHO, a quality, properly installed oil cooler has a very low risk of failure. I would also believe that subjecting complex molecules (oil) to repeated high temperatures will cause some degree of breakdown of said molecules. If I am going to err on my oil temps, I will err on the side of caution and keep my oil cool.

[PulsarBeeerz]

Do people only care about the oil temp and not the oil pressure now? I mean its great that synthetic oil is OK with high temps but the oil pressure and now RTV seem less impressed.

[X25]

Oil pressure is just a signal on us ensuring there's "an oil film" on the bearings, etc. We measure the "back-pressure" caused by the pumping, not necessarily what happens in the engine on the bearings. That said, when the engine oil temps are pretty hot, it's obviously much easier for the pump to recirculate is as well with much reduced friction.

For more than a decade, I could never see a definitive answer on what the oil pressures should be. It used to be 60+ PSI, but later when manufacturers switched to variable speed pumps, it became clear that they didn't care for anything more than 45 PSI, at least some of them.

As a result of all this, I think oil pressure gauge is the most useless gauge there is for me. If it hits zero, it's too late. If it's not zero, I don't know what it should be...

When the engine oil is very hot, it does only 10-15 PSI idling on same engines, freaking out some, but you don't need much oiling at idle anyway, and they still make more than 30 PSI at higher RPMs, so no problem. Anyway this is my 2 cents : ) There's quite a bit more discussion on Bob's the oil guy forum.

[DrinkenBRZ]

Originally Posted by X25

Oil pressure is just a signal on us ensuring there's "an oil film" on the bearings, etc. We measure the "back-pressure" caused by the pumping, not necessarily what happens in the engine on the bearings. That said, when the engine oil temps are pretty hot, it's obviously much easier for the pump to recirculate is as well with much reduced friction.

For more than a decade, I could never see a definitive answer on what the oil pressures should be. It used to be 60+ PSI, but later when manufacturers switched to variable speed pumps, it became clear that they didn't care for anything more than 45 PSI, at least some of them.

As a result of all this, I think oil pressure gauge is the most useless gauge there is for me. If it hits zero, it's too late. If it's not zero, I don't know what it should be...

When the engine oil is very hot, it does only 10-15 PSI idling on same engines, freaking out some, but you don't need much oiling at idle anyway, and they still make more than 30 PSI at higher RPMs, so no problem. Anyway this is my 2 cents : ) There's quite a bit more discussion on Bob's the oil guy forum.

Well written. The variable displacement oil pumps have thrown a lot of what used to be ‘known’ about the necessity for an ‘ideal’ oil pressure out the window.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by blsfrs

My 25 hours reference is from CSG

For me, 25 hours track usage is nearly 2 years. I've been changing after every 4-6 track hours, honestly I think I'll consider extending that to fresh oil beginning of season, with one oil-change mid-season which would be 6-8 hours of track usage between changes.

[CSG]Consider sending out your used oil for analysis to monitor wear on your engine and help you determine optimal oil change intervals for your application

Yup. If you feel you're pushing the limits of the oil, get it analyzed. At my change intervals, I don't think I am.

[CSG]Unless you know for certain that you need a specific oil weight for your racing or off-road application, you should use oil with the viscosity grade recommended by Toyota or Subaru in the owner's manual of your car. This is usually SAE 0W-20 for most regions.

I disagree with this. In most regions they explicitly recommend higher viscosity oil even just for hotter ambient temps, nevermind track usage where oil temps will be significantly higher than during normal operation on the street.
If tracking the car, 30-weight synth is a good idea for better high-temp/high-shear (HTHS). With or without an oil cooler.

IMHO, a quality, properly installed oil cooler has a very low risk of failure.

But still non-zero. Leaks are common, and I've read of at least one failure due to oil cooler install issues. IMO for most of us who track these cars, it is an added risk with little to no real benefit.

I would also believe that subjecting complex molecules (oil) to repeated high temperatures will cause some degree of breakdown of said molecules. If I am going to err on my oil temps, I will err on the side of caution and keep my oil cool.

If you worry about that, have oil tested at well under the change interval of 25 track hours you quoted. See when the oil viscosity begins to become degraded. Again, for my usage there's really no way my change interval will be greater than about 8 track hours based on my usage, so *way* below 25 track hours. For me, I'm not worried at all about running 275F indicated oil temps at the track, at my change interval with 5w30 synthetic.

[jflogerzi]

I think we have beaten this horse to death. Lay it to rest guys. Options are out there for a reason. Some will run Oil Coolers and others won't.

[PulsarBeeerz]

Originally Posted by ZDan

For me, 25 hours track usage is nearly 2 years. I've been changing after every 4-6 track hours, honestly I think I'll consider extending that to fresh oil beginning of season, with one oil-change mid-season which would be 6-8 hours of track usage between changes.


Yup. If you feel you're pushing the limits of the oil, get it analyzed. At my change intervals, I don't think I am.

I disagree with this. In most regions they explicitly recommend higher viscosity oil even just for hotter ambient temps, nevermind track usage where oil temps will be significantly higher than during normal operation on the street.
If tracking the car, 30-weight synth is a good idea for better high-temp/high-shear (HTHS). With or without an oil cooler.

But still non-zero. Leaks are common, and I've read of at least one failure due to oil cooler install issues. IMO for most of us who track these cars, it is an added risk with little to no real benefit.


If you worry about that, have oil tested at well under the change interval of 25 track hours you quoted. See when the oil viscosity begins to become degraded. Again, for my usage there's really no way my change interval will be greater than about 8 track hours based on my usage, so *way* below 25 track hours. For me, I'm not worried at all about running 275F indicated oil temps at the track, at my change interval with 5w30 synthetic.

Leaks aren't common, you just made that up.lol I understand you want to be right about this topic badly, but fabricating erroneous statements is a bit much.. They are so common that you read of one, ONE failure, disputing your previous statement. C'mon man..

[X25]

I've installed a few oil cooler kits, and they often develop small leaks in time, creating mess around lines. Those -an connections are very sensitive to exact tightness you need to get them to, and retightening also messes up the connection. The barbed cheap connections fare better regarding leaks, but they might just pop under stress. And most importantly, if any of these lines ever fail, unlike coolant, you'll likely damage engine in short order, not to mention possible spin and crash.

Touching on oil system is the last thing I'd do, and I'd only do it if it's absolutely necessary.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by PulsarBeeerz

Leaks aren't common, you just made that up.lol I understand you want to be right about this topic badly, but fabricating erroneous statements is a bit much..

https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125357
https://www.ft86club.com/forums/show....php?p=3453305
https://www.ft86club.com/forums/show....php?p=3391153
https://www.ft86club.com/forums/show....php?p=3048051
https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=110679
https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45538
https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40254
etc.

[Petah78]

The problem with air to oil cooler isn't just leaks, you also run into problems with overcooling/longer heat up periods of the oil. In some cases, pending on your geographic location and model of oil cooler, your oil might never get up to temp in the winter! OEMs install factory coolers/warmers for a reason. I rather run hotter oil for the odd track event (less than 1% of total usage) than oil that it too cold for the street (99% where my engine operates). I really think oil cooler is a very "YMMV" debate.

[autosenses]

Everyone makes a great point. Clearly there's no clear cut right answer here. Essentially if your oil goes over 250, you should monitor and try to cool it down. I am curious how high the oil will get this Fall. Right now ambient temps are avg. in the 90's. We will see...

I like how thread evolved to oil change intervals especially with the RTV issue.

Questions- changing the oil much more frequent will help get rid of some of the RTV? Based on what I see, RTV can come from the timing chain cover and not only the pan. So by changing more frequently, could some of that RTV get drained out?

[DrinkenBRZ]

Originally Posted by autosenses

Everyone makes a great point. Clearly there's no clear cut right answer here. Essentially if your oil goes over 250, you should monitor and try to cool it down. I am curious how high the oil will get this Fall. Right now ambient temps are avg. in the 90's. We will see...

I like how thread evolved to oil change intervals especially with the RTV issue.

Questions- changing the oil much more frequent will help get rid of some of the RTV? Based on what I see, RTV can come from the timing chain cover and not only the pan. So by changing more frequently, could some of that RTV get drained out?

So far no one has successfully made the point that 250 oil temps need cooling. Monitoring, maybe. It’s very evident most synthetics today can sustain temperatures of 300+. Issue comes with engine materials at 320 and viscosity above 210.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by autosenses

Essentially if your oil goes over 250, you should monitor and try to cool it down.

Meh, with 30-weight synthetic I'm not worried at 275F max.

Questions- changing the oil much more frequent will help get rid of some of the RTV? Based on what I see, RTV can come from the timing chain cover and not only the pan. So by changing more frequently, could some of that RTV get drained out?

I would not at all count on frequent draining/changing of oil to get rid of excess loose RTV. It looks like it gets drawn into the feed tube and sticks to the grating. If I had a '22/'23 I would definitely have a look into the pickup tube before tracking it or even running hard on the street.