Potential Cause of rumored GR86’s blown engine? Seal packing(RTV) was peeled off

[Aon]

Originally Posted by Kamber

It wil be interesting to see if a bore scope can reach the strainer through the oil pan to check for RTV chunks.

Unfortunately the oil pickup is located in such a way that it not able to be accessed unless the pan is removed. You can however look at the surrounding seal and check for excessive sealant or signs of some breaking off.

[S_Yogurt]

Originally Posted by Chrisz5z

Give us a free day of racing so you can deny us a warranty...looks like a trap.

HPDE is not racing, it's not (supposed to be) timed or competitive. I understand that it's still stressful on the engine and oiling systems, and I'm not saying the situation isn't BS.

But pretty much every manufacturer has blanket terms for voiding warranties around 'timed competition' whether that's on a drag strip, on a track, or in a parking lot. Toyota and Subaru can tell you to use it in HPDE and simultaneously void a warranty for damaged caused in competition, and be legally fine.

Here, it's obvious the damage isn't caused by the track use. It's only a matter of time before it gets recalled and dealt with - but for the internet voices to say Toyota is evil, that they will never buy one, etc...

I have yet to see how this situation is being handled any differently than any other manufacturer ever. There's going to be a period where Toyota investigates the problem, and determines that it was a manufacturing defect. Remember, they don't even BUILD these cars, so it'll naturally take them a little longer to be able to say "hey, we effed up".

[chipmunk]

Originally Posted by mycrors7

Has there been notable BRZ failures with the RTV issue? It seems so far that all the documented RTV related failures worldwide have been on a GR86.

With my limited knowledge of the manufacturing details, I venture out to point out that the both GR86 and BRZ engines have absolutely no difference during assembly, since they should all be built in the same plant (Gunma?). Unlike the valve spring recall failures (where Toyota techs were working on boxer engines), this seems to be coming from factory line.

Anyone else care to expand on this?

[S_Yogurt]

Originally Posted by chipmunk

With my limited knowledge of the manufacturing details, I venture out to point out that the both GR86 and BRZ engines have absolutely no difference during assembly, since they should all be built in the same plant (Gunma?). Unlike the valve spring recall failures (where Toyota techs were working on boxer engines), this seems to be coming from factory line.

Anyone else care to expand on this?

I know someone who boroscoped their BRZ and found extra RTV squishing out, it just hadn't caused a failure yet. It may be simply because of sales volume of Toyota versus Subaru that we're seeing more of one than the other.

[Aon]

A buddy of mine got paranoid and pulled his oil pan. His pan seal seemed ok with no missing chunks, however there were some small bits of silicone present in the oil pickup (likely from the front timing cover). He took pictures then cleaned it out and resealed the pan.

2022 GR86 - 2700 miles - 12/21 Build Date

[Spektyr]

Originally Posted by S_Yogurt

HPDE is not racing, it's not (supposed to be) timed or competitive. I understand that it's still stressful on the engine and oiling systems, and I'm not saying the situation isn't BS.

But pretty much every manufacturer has blanket terms for voiding warranties around 'timed competition' whether that's on a drag strip, on a track, or in a parking lot. Toyota and Subaru can tell you to use it in HPDE and simultaneously void a warranty for damaged caused in competition, and be legally fine.

Here, it's obvious the damage isn't caused by the track use. It's only a matter of time before it gets recalled and dealt with - but for the internet voices to say Toyota is evil, that they will never buy one, etc...

I have yet to see how this situation is being handled any differently than any other manufacturer ever. There's going to be a period where Toyota investigates the problem, and determines that it was a manufacturing defect. Remember, they don't even BUILD these cars, so it'll naturally take them a little longer to be able to say "hey, we effed up".

Never underestimate the power of ignorance.

Sure, there may be a huge technical disparity between HPDE and "timed competition" but can you effectively explain how that makes a difference within what should and shouldn't be covered under warranty?

Moreover, are you (Toyota) willing to set precedence for every future warranty repair based on a US judge's ability to understand that distinction?

What do you think Toyota is going to do? Put $11k worth of repairs into a single car or risk creating legal precedence that they can't call any kind of racing history a disqualifying activity for every 86 past and present?

Big companies like this tend not to have the appetite to die on these small hills. When faced with litigation their instinct is to make it go away in the most "off the (legal) books" manner possible.

Sure, they appeal the decision and so on ad nauseum. They have the money and lawyers to do that. But in the meantime they're stacking up cases and cases and then someone files a class-action and they're hundreds of thousands of dollars invested in something that might have cost them tens of thousands to fix.

[OkieSnuffBox]

Originally Posted by chipmunk

With my limited knowledge of the manufacturing details, I venture out to point out that the both GR86 and BRZ engines have absolutely no difference during assembly, since they should all be built in the same plant (Gunma?). Unlike the valve spring recall failures (where Toyota techs were working on boxer engines), this seems to be coming from factory line.

Anyone else care to expand on this?

It does seem like they are building Subaru's, then building the GR's, at least for the 2022. So perhaps the machine fell out of calibration or something of that nature.

[S_Yogurt]

Originally Posted by Spektyr

Never underestimate the power of ignorance.

Sure, there may be a huge technical disparity between HPDE and "timed competition" but can you effectively explain how that makes a difference within what should and shouldn't be covered under warranty?

Moreover, are you (Toyota) willing to set precedence for every future warranty repair based on a US judge's ability to understand that distinction?

What do you think Toyota is going to do? Put $11k worth of repairs into a single car or risk creating legal precedence that they can't call any kind of racing history a disqualifying activity for every 86 past and present?

Big companies like this tend not to have the appetite to die on these small hills. When faced with litigation their instinct is to make it go away in the most "off the (legal) books" manner possible.

Sure, they appeal the decision and so on ad nauseum. They have the money and lawyers to do that. But in the meantime they're stacking up cases and cases and then someone files a class-action and they're hundreds of thousands of dollars invested in something that might have cost them tens of thousands to fix.

I don't think this is the right decision, no. I also don't think they're evil for making this decision at this stage, my point is that this isn't out of line with what any other manufacturer would decide or do.

They're going to have to fix it either way, whether it's a warranty for broken cars or a recall they will eventually issue, assuming this is widespread enough to require them to do so.

[Opie]

Originally Posted by Kamber

Funnily enough, there is a gentleman on the other forum who has a BRZ and for some inexplicable reason chose to do seven track days on the same fill of OEM 0w-20 oil without changing it; unsurprisingly, his engine failed. Shockingly, Subaru of America decided to cover it out of good will, despite the track use and oil blunder being disclosed. This is of course a lonely sample size of but one. However, compare that to Toyota of Japan and Toyota of America outright denying claims without investigation, citing “track use” as the reason, when they laughably PROVIDE a free track day to each customer, and outright trying to fuck people over by digging through their social medias to find evidence of track or drift usage to deny claims while refusing to send a regional technician out to examine the failure - it becomes clear that one brand may have a more supportive attitude than the other. I understand that a couple of the Toyota denials that were posted about online recently may have been in fact have been perfectly reasonable due to user error or miss-use being involved in the reason for failure - this still pales in stark contrast to the couple feel-good experiences I’ve read about Subaru recently; the one listed above, among others.

I am acutely aware of this individual and failure. Several things to note:
When the failure occurred the telematics unit did notify Starlink of the failure (Check Engine Light-Low Oil Pressure) and the location. GPS location was pin-pointed to a track. Each of these cars also has what I'll call "black box data" that only Subaru FSM's can pull. When they pulled the data from this particular car it showed multiple over-revs, top speed data, acceleration data, G-load and the fact that there were more than 4 TPMS sensors registered to the car. They used this to reasnoably (and acurately) determine the car had been tracked.

This engine was not torn down by the dealer. SOA had the dealer install a new, complete engine assembly. Then had the entire damaged engine assembly, including the oil from the engine shipped back to have their engineers investigate the cause of the failure. If it is an assembly issue, or a sealant application issue or a substandard part issue it will be found and corrected. If it was an abuse issue, they'll find that to.

Sadly it seems that Toyota cannot get complete engine assemblies....only Subaru can. Score Subaru.

A thing on warranty denial...Abuse is a very broad term, drifting, doing a donut, smoking the tires, dropping the clutch, etc are all abusive actions...all can result in a denial. Track, HPDE, Autocross, race, drift....be ready to pay to play.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

You do, but it's in donuts.

That is a bribe not markup.

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

That is a bribe not markup.

po-tay-toe po-tah-toe

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

po-tay-toe po-tah-toe

Damnit that bot is back!

[FrickingReallySlow]

Damn! starlink is that now that powerful.. GPS pinpoint your ass and logging our activities

does seem Subaru has an incentive to find out what's wrong with their own manufacturing line in the first year or maybe Subaru wants to own the "Love Promise" to its customers, I think they're scoring highest in customer loyalty right now. If any dealer denies your spun bearing grenaded FA24, might be worth bringing up that they promised their eternal love to you lol

Originally Posted by Opie

I am acutely aware of this individual and failure. Several things to note:
When the failure occurred the telematics unit did notify Starlink of the failure (Check Engine Light-Low Oil Pressure) and the location. GPS location was pin-pointed to a track. Each of these cars also has what I'll call "black box data" that only Subaru FSM's can pull. When they pulled the data from this particular car it showed multiple over-revs, top speed data, acceleration data, G-load and the fact that there were more than 4 TPMS sensors registered to the car. They used this to reasnoably (and acurately) determine the car had been tracked.

This engine was not torn down by the dealer. SOA had the dealer install a new, complete engine assembly. Then had the entire damaged engine assembly, including the oil from the engine shipped back to have their engineers investigate the cause of the failure. If it is an assembly issue, or a sealant application issue or a substandard part issue it will be found and corrected. If it was an abuse issue, they'll find that to.

Sadly it seems that Toyota cannot get complete engine assemblies....only Subaru can. Score Subaru.

A thing on warranty denial...Abuse is a very broad term, drifting, doing a donut, smoking the tires, dropping the clutch, etc are all abusive actions...all can result in a denial. Track, HPDE, Autocross, race, drift....be ready to pay to play.

[OkieSnuffBox]

One of our great devs needs to come up with a way to obfuscate the data outside of the ECM.