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Old 03-20-2018, 01:44 AM   #1
BAT_BRZ
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Question Built Engine planning. Got any suggestions?

The end goal of this build is forced induction.

I have daily driven my BRZ for the last 2 years and have about 55k miles on it (bought it with 18K). I want more power for track sessions and fun. But I also need some kind of reliability with this so I need to build the engine out.

I've built two v8's before (old ford 302 small blocks) and feel relatively comfortable about doing this build myself as opposed to buying a built short block. I am in that discovery part of the build and am looking to pull the trigger on this project in 2-4 months. I'm hoping there are others who have done built motors who have tips on part selection. I am aiming for 350+ RWHP. Ideally 400.

Step 1: Initial parts planning

I basically followed a step by step build from MotoIQ. I changed out some parts. (http://www.motoiq.com/MagazineArticl...-Crushing.aspx )

Part Cost
  1. Pistons 620.16 https://www.maperformance.com/produc...ged-piston-kit
  2. Connecting rods 700.00 http://www.manleyperformance.com/sc/...a20_rods.shtml
  3. Bearings 150.00 http://www.ft86speedfactory.com/king...l#.Wql-NujwaUk
  4. Gaskets 355.87 http://www.ft86speedfactory.com/hks-...l#.Wql-eOjwaUk
  5. Vales 419.99 http://ipgparts.com/store/Supertech-...20-Engine.html
  6. valve guides (X8) 61.98 https://www.supertechperformance.com...ke-valve-guide
  7. Studs 232.62 http://www.ft86speedfactory.com/arp-...B#.WqmAKejwaUk
  8. Engine bolts 376.10 http://www.ft86speedfactory.com/arp-...l#.WqmAZ-jwaUk
  9. Oil Pump 368.00 https://www.counterspacegarage.com/reimax-oil-pump-fa20
  10. Oil baffle 134.60 http://www.ft86speedfactory.com/moro...l#.WqmA0-jwaUk
Total 3,419.32

The car is an Automatic and I know I will have to get a transmission oil heat exchange, perhaps a torque converter, and other parts. I am looking for more information on this but have not started any parts selections. After I have the engine set up and broken in, I'm eye balling the Edelbrock supercharger. Turbos look fun too; I'm not opposed.

I am concerned about other bits and pieces I need to buy and am looking to factor that into the build! Any tips or suggestions would be appreciated.

Last edited by BAT_BRZ; 03-20-2018 at 12:09 PM. Reason: Added parts and changed rods
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Old 03-20-2018, 08:56 AM   #2
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If you're looking for a built torque converter, let me know. I have one done by LevelTen that I don't need anymore.




Quote:
Originally Posted by BAT_BRZ View Post
The end goal of this build is forced induction.

I have daily driven my BRZ for the last 2 years and have about 55k miles on it (bought it with 18K). I want more power for track sessions and fun. But I also need some kind of reliability with this so I need to build the engine out.

I've built two v8's before (old ford 302 small blocks) and feel relatively comfortable about doing this build myself as opposed to buying a built short block. I am in that discovery part of the build and am looking to pull the trigger on this project in 2-4 months. I'm hoping there are others who have done built motors who have tips on part selection. I am aiming for 350+ RWHP. Ideally 400.

Step 1: Initial parts planning

I basically followed a step by step build from MotoIQ. I changed out some parts. (http://www.motoiq.com/MagazineArticl...-Crushing.aspx )

Part Cost

  1. Pistons 620.16 https://www.maperformance.com/produc...ged-piston-kit
  2. Connecting rods 695.12 http://www.ft86speedfactory.com/bc-i...IaAmL0EALw_wcB
  3. Bearings 150 http://www.ft86speedfactory.com/king...l#.Wql-NujwaUk
  4. Gaskets 355.87 http://www.ft86speedfactory.com/hks-...l#.Wql-eOjwaUk
  5. Vales 419.99 http://ipgparts.com/store/Supertech-...20-Engine.html
  6. valve guides (X8) 61.98 https://www.supertechperformance.com...ke-valve-guide
  7. Studs 232.62 http://www.ft86speedfactory.com/arp-...B#.WqmAKejwaUk
  8. Engine bolts 376.1 http://www.ft86speedfactory.com/arp-...l#.WqmAZ-jwaUk
  9. Oil baffle 134.6 http://www.ft86speedfactory.com/moro...l#.WqmA0-jwaUk
    Total 3046.44

The car is an Automatic and I know I will have to get a transmission oil heat exchange, perhaps a torque converter, and other parts. I am looking for more information on this but have not started any parts selections. After I have the engine set up and broken in, I'm eye balling the Edelbrock supercharger. Turbos look fun too; I'm not opposed.

I am concerned about other bits and pieces I need to buy and am looking to factor that into the build! Any tips or suggestions would be appreciated.
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Old 03-20-2018, 09:48 AM   #3
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Shop around I highly suggest it ft86speedfactory is pretty upthere in price dude. Check maperformance rally sport direct frsport look around and you’ll notice a big difference in parts/price

As for your parts list I would suggest spending a little more money and getting the Manley turbo tuff rods. I know it sounds iffy but there is this guy on ebay that sells the Manley rods for our engines for 660 you just gotta keep a look out he normally has a set or two and if you can’t find them give him a week or two and he’ll post them up again

The engine itself isn’t too difficult I built my own. Just follow the instructions in the service manual and you’ll be good
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Old 03-20-2018, 09:50 AM   #4
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Those pistons you linked above appear to be for the EJ and not for the FA20; JE or CP pistons are generally the most recommended. Additionally, the recommended compression ratio for the new pistons is dependent on whether you're going to be using a supercharger or a turbocharger and the type of fuel you have access to.

If supercharging, see if you can get consistent access to E85 or another high octane fuel and go for the stock or close to stock compression ratio as your 400whp target will be very difficult to attain with low compression pistons and a supercharger. E85, stock compression ratio, and a smaller pulley with the Edelbrock kit would easily make 400whp. Technically, I think 400whp has been reached with the standard pulley size, but it might be safer to increase full boost a bit to reduce the need for aggressive timing.

If turbocharging, it doesn't matter too much if you lower the compression ratio as you'll be able to easily increase your boost level to compensate and still make your 400whp target. E85, 10:1 compression ratio, and 15-20 psi on a GTX30 or similar with a good tuner would easily make 400whp. If you do have readily available E85, turbocharging with a high compression ratio would make it quite easy to hit 400whp as you wouldn't have to push very much boost at all; you might even get there with 10-12 psi instead of 15-20. There aren't really any reliability concerns with the higher compression ratio as long as you have a capable tuner (HRI, Moto-East, Delicious, etc.)

Also, definitely add the Reimax oil pump gear; it's cheap oil pressure insurance and lots of experienced builders for this platform don't build a engine without it.

Last edited by Fred E; 03-20-2018 at 10:03 AM.
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Old 03-20-2018, 12:08 PM   #5
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Those pistons you linked above appear to be for the EJ and not for the FA20; JE or CP pistons are generally the most recommended. Additionally, the recommended compression ratio for the new pistons is dependent on whether you're going to be using a supercharger or a turbocharger and the type of fuel you have access to.

If supercharging, see if you can get consistent access to E85 or another high octane fuel and go for the stock or close to stock compression ratio as your 400whp target will be very difficult to attain with low compression pistons and a supercharger. E85, stock compression ratio, and a smaller pulley with the Edelbrock kit would easily make 400whp. Technically, I think 400whp has been reached with the standard pulley size, but it might be safer to increase full boost a bit to reduce the need for aggressive timing.

If turbocharging, it doesn't matter too much if you lower the compression ratio as you'll be able to easily increase your boost level to compensate and still make your 400whp target. E85, 10:1 compression ratio, and 15-20 psi on a GTX30 or similar with a good tuner would easily make 400whp. If you do have readily available E85, turbocharging with a high compression ratio would make it quite easy to hit 400whp as you wouldn't have to push very much boost at all; you might even get there with 10-12 psi instead of 15-20. There aren't really any reliability concerns with the higher compression ratio as long as you have a capable tuner (HRI, Moto-East, Delicious, etc.)

Also, definitely add the Reimax oil pump gear; it's cheap oil pressure insurance and lots of experienced builders for this platform don't build a engine without it.
Thank you for the info! So the motoIQ build has the JE pistons spec'd in their build also. I don't know what the major difference would be for going to the Wahle pistons or JEpistons. Both seem like good options but if JE is the go, and it seem's like it, then I don't mind speccing them in.

I do have access to E85. Gas station 3 blocks away has it! I am going back and forth right now on installing a flex fuel kit right now to see how much of a hassle it is for me to consistently scout for E85 or switch between 91 octane maps and E85 (when available). I do go on road trips with the car to SoCal infrequently so I would like to stick to 91. But all major HP builds I see do have E85.

I am impartial to supercharging just because I love the whine of the supercharger. The swoosh'ing of the turbo does sound cool too, but I wonder how much cabin feedback I will get. But in terms of the build, it seems like lowering the compression to 10.5:1 is the general number. Would you say 10.1 would be better for turbo? If it is far easier to get 400 RWHP and I have room to go higher, then turbo it will be. Plus I can keep the strut bar I have on my car right now if I turbo the car. I guess my other big concern is delivery of power. I hear a lot about turbo lag etc etc, and superchargers would theoretically give me a more linear power band. I guess it comes down to the tuner and testing the car with a turbo to get better performance.

Also, oil pump added. I appreciate the tip.
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Old 03-20-2018, 12:10 PM   #6
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If you're looking for a built torque converter, let me know. I have one done by LevelTen that I don't need anymore.
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Old 03-20-2018, 12:24 PM   #7
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I am running the edelbrock supercharger, stock pulley, and e-85 with delicious flex fuel kit. 323 at the wheels. I have been very happy with this package.
I am also building a new motor and my dyno shop said unless I'm really going to up the boost stay with a 12.5 to one piston.

Also need bigger fuel pump and injectors if boosting with e-85
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Old 03-20-2018, 01:20 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BAT_BRZ View Post
Thank you for the info! So the motoIQ build has the JE pistons spec'd in their build also. I don't know what the major difference would be for going to the Wahle pistons or JEpistons. Both seem like good options but if JE is the go, and it seem's like it, then I don't mind speccing them in.

I do have access to E85. Gas station 3 blocks away has it! I am going back and forth right now on installing a flex fuel kit right now to see how much of a hassle it is for me to consistently scout for E85 or switch between 91 octane maps and E85 (when available). I do go on road trips with the car to SoCal infrequently so I would like to stick to 91. But all major HP builds I see do have E85.

I am impartial to supercharging just because I love the whine of the supercharger. The swoosh'ing of the turbo does sound cool too, but I wonder how much cabin feedback I will get. But in terms of the build, it seems like lowering the compression to 10.5:1 is the general number. Would you say 10.1 would be better for turbo? If it is far easier to get 400 RWHP and I have room to go higher, then turbo it will be. Plus I can keep the strut bar I have on my car right now if I turbo the car. I guess my other big concern is delivery of power. I hear a lot about turbo lag etc etc, and superchargers would theoretically give me a more linear power band. I guess it comes down to the tuner and testing the car with a turbo to get better performance.

Also, oil pump added. I appreciate the tip.
The best part about a flex fuel kit is that you can use full E85, 91 octane, or any combination in between; the tune will adjust fueling automatically. I highly recommend getting the flex fuel kit for this capability and your tuner can also build in different easily-switchable maps to accommodate how knock-prone 91 octane gas is. Any concentration of ethanol will help the engine run better and have less knock, so even on road trips, if you can maintain something like 30%, the high compression engine will love it. These engines run so well on ethanol (even N/A) that I actually plan my road trip routes to include E85 stations!

Regarding supercharger whine, there isn't too much whine from the Edelbrock kit or any of the Rotrex-based kits, but the Innovate kit has a tremendous amount of whine. Innovate kits aren't recommended due to the inefficiency though (which incidentally causes the whine), unfortunately. If supercharging, the Edelbrock kit is highly recommended above all other supercharger kits. You could even take one of those SoCal road trips straight to Edelbrock!

Regarding turbocharger lag, the JDL kit with a Gen 2 GTX28 has no noticeable lag and the Full Race EFR-based twin scroll kit has an impressive power curve that has similarities to a supercharger's linear curve and both can easily do 400whp. The Full Race kit is quite expensive, however. PTuning's kit is a different take and mounts the turbo outside of the engine bay and underneath the car, which is pretty interesting, and they combat the turbo lag with rather small diameter charge piping and very quickly spooling turbos. PTuning's kit is also priced similar to the Full Race kit and would require an aftermarket N/A style (definitely catless) header to reach full potential. The consensus is basically a toss-up between JDL and Full Race as the best turbo kit option and it comes down to preference/price for you. You could take a longer road trip out to see both JDL and Full Race as they coincidentally are both in Phoenix.

10.5:1 compression ratio is fine, that's what my engine has due to lack of convenient E85 (only 3 stations in NJ...); the .5 doesn't make very much of a difference. However given how prevalent E85 is in California, I would recommend ordering custom JE or CP 12.5:1 pistons and asking your tuner for an extremely conservative alternate low-boost map for when you're forced to use straight 91 octane. Having a secondary low-boost map isn't something you can do with a supercharger though, unfortunately.
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Old 03-20-2018, 04:33 PM   #9
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The best part about a flex fuel kit is that you can use full E85, 91 octane, or any combination in between; the tune will adjust fueling automatically. .
Here's the best thing about Flex Fuel. BG
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Old 03-21-2018, 12:19 AM   #10
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Here's the best thing about Flex Fuel. BG
Yes. Just, yes! Haha
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Old 03-21-2018, 12:31 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Fred E View Post
The best part about a flex fuel kit is that you can use full E85, 91 octane, or any combination in between; the tune will adjust fueling automatically. I highly recommend getting the flex fuel kit for this capability and your tuner can also build in different easily-switchable maps to accommodate how knock-prone 91 octane gas is. Any concentration of ethanol will help the engine run better and have less knock, so even on road trips, if you can maintain something like 30%, the high compression engine will love it. These engines run so well on ethanol (even N/A) that I actually plan my road trip routes to include E85 stations!

Regarding supercharger whine, there isn't too much whine from the Edelbrock kit or any of the Rotrex-based kits, but the Innovate kit has a tremendous amount of whine. Innovate kits aren't recommended due to the inefficiency though (which incidentally causes the whine), unfortunately. If supercharging, the Edelbrock kit is highly recommended above all other supercharger kits. You could even take one of those SoCal road trips straight to Edelbrock!

Regarding turbocharger lag, the JDL kit with a Gen 2 GTX28 has no noticeable lag and the Full Race EFR-based twin scroll kit has an impressive power curve that has similarities to a supercharger's linear curve and both can easily do 400whp. The Full Race kit is quite expensive, however. PTuning's kit is a different take and mounts the turbo outside of the engine bay and underneath the car, which is pretty interesting, and they combat the turbo lag with rather small diameter charge piping and very quickly spooling turbos. PTuning's kit is also priced similar to the Full Race kit and would require an aftermarket N/A style (definitely catless) header to reach full potential. The consensus is basically a toss-up between JDL and Full Race as the best turbo kit option and it comes down to preference/price for you. You could take a longer road trip out to see both JDL and Full Race as they coincidentally are both in Phoenix.

10.5:1 compression ratio is fine, that's what my engine has due to lack of convenient E85 (only 3 stations in NJ...); the .5 doesn't make very much of a difference. However given how prevalent E85 is in California, I would recommend ordering custom JE or CP 12.5:1 pistons and asking your tuner for an extremely conservative alternate low-boost map for when you're forced to use straight 91 octane. Having a secondary low-boost map isn't something you can do with a supercharger though, unfortunately.
Dug into the E85 kits more. Looks like Delicious tuning is doing a cool event near me for a week. So I might get that sooner than I expected. Did some more digging around and found cheaper prices on the JE pistons too. So that looks like it will stay for sure. It also looks like the Delicious tuning kit changes the map as it reads the E85 too so I can get that part done now.

As for turbo versus supercharger, I'm having a harder time picking between the two. So it seems that right now E85 with 10.5:1 compression is okay for turbo. But will be harder for a supercharger to manage. One part of me wants to turbo and go for it because those engine bays look awesome and the ability to go higher boost for more power down the road is a plus. I'll check some more literature out to see if I can understand this more. Being in California, I have no idea how turbos affect emissions and I know the Edelbrock has a map I can use to pass!

Either way, looks like I'm gonna have a fun road trip when I get this build together!
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Old 03-21-2018, 12:32 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunatic View Post
I am running the edelbrock supercharger, stock pulley, and e-85 with delicious flex fuel kit. 323 at the wheels. I have been very happy with this package.
I am also building a new motor and my dyno shop said unless I'm really going to up the boost stay with a 12.5 to one piston.

Also need bigger fuel pump and injectors if boosting with e-85
Any recommendations or places you would get the pump and injectors?
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Old 03-21-2018, 01:05 AM   #13
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Any recommendations or places you would get the pump and injectors?
CSG

Also, replace that baffle with one that has flaps. It's more effective. https://www.counterspacegarage.com/bm-oil-baffle-fa20
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Old 03-21-2018, 01:42 AM   #14
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Being in California, I have no idea how turbos affect emissions and I know the Edelbrock has a map I can use to pass!
Edelbrock’s tune is not designed for a built motor and could cause damage to your built engine. The only CARB legal turbo for this platform is WORKS, all other turbos are not SMOG legal.

As for fuel pumps and stuff. Mann Engineering, Elite Performance and The Racers Line are all Bay Area local and can order parts.
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