New ICE Vehicles Banned in California by 2035

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

It is pretty much the consensus on several forums I read. They could do what you said but the Bolt didn't meet their sales projections primarily based on it's looks, and the Equinox is closer to what sells these days.

Yeah so basically exactly what she said. Big trucks and SUVs will sell better, so better to repurpose the space for those than the Bolt.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

Yeah so basically exactly what she said. Big trucks and SUVs will sell better, so better to repurpose the space for those than the Bolt.

The Equinox is not really a big truck, although I suppose it is an SUV. The Bolt wasn't exactly a car either though.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

Are we really going back to this conversation? People are choosing to buy these vehicles. Like yes, CAFE standards aren't as strict for SUVs and light duty trucks than cars, but heavier vehicles are harder to make efficient too, so either way, it is hard on manufactures.

2+2 = 4, it's that simple.

Domestics have had trouble selling *cars*, an easier time selling *trucks and SUVs*. So EPA regs have been skewed to favor trucks/SUVs. Likewise, domestics prefer to build bigger cars, and bigger trucks, so larger-footprint vehicles get breaks as well. This is one reason *cars*, and particularly smaller cars, and also smaller trucks are disappearing.

If you don't think that these regs have affected what kinds of cars manufacturers build for and sell in the U.S., you might think about it a little more...

It's beyond absurd that half the vehicles I see on my commute to workie are HUGE trucks and SUVs while CO2 continues to climb. Stupid...

[Sasquachulator]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

Why do you say that? Seems like they could build any new gen compact with a similar shell and call it a Bolt. I see no reasons why they would be able to build a new, EV Equinox, but would be stuck reengineering and retrofitting a new powertrain to the old Bolt.

I dunno what platform the bolt is on but the Equinox EV is on its own dedicated EV platform (Ultium) is it not? That probably helps keeps the costs down. Look what Toyota had to do, they didnt do a good job of making an EV transition platform (E-TNGA) or even use it all that well and now they're fast tracking a pure dedicated EV platform for next gen EV use. ANd alot of this is due to how Tesla manufacturers an EV....aside from cost cutting to shit they dont have to share anything in an ICE counterpart, so they're not restricted by ICE packaging.

GM was and is still losing money on every Bolt were they not?
Besides, small cars dont sell in the N/A market anymore (Which the Bolt is...and dont care how many EV nutjobs cry about how the Bolt is the cheapest EV out there...not everyone wants a Bolt or can use its size, especially in North America) so getting an Equinox sized CUV/SUV is probably automatically better for the bottom line and sales numbers.

[MyHybridBurnsGasAndTires]

Originally Posted by ZDan

2+2 = 4, it's that simple.

Domestics have had trouble selling *cars*, an easier time selling *trucks and SUVs*. So EPA regs have been skewed to favor trucks/SUVs. Likewise, domestics prefer to build bigger cars, and bigger trucks, so larger-footprint vehicles get breaks as well. This is one reason *cars*, and particularly smaller cars, and also smaller trucks are disappearing.

If you don't think that these regs have affected what kinds of cars manufacturers build for and sell in the U.S., you might think about it a little more...

It's beyond absurd that half the vehicles I see on my commute to workie are HUGE trucks and SUVs while CO2 continues to climb. Stupid...

he's google searching his way through every single discussion here, its not fair to expect him to do any thinking about this subject

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by ZDan

2+2 = 4, it's that simple.

Domestics have had trouble selling *cars*, an easier time selling *trucks and SUVs*. So EPA regs have been skewed to favor trucks/SUVs. Likewise, domestics prefer to build bigger cars, and bigger trucks, so larger-footprint vehicles get breaks as well. This is one reason *cars*, and particularly smaller cars, and also smaller trucks are disappearing.

If you don't think that these regs have affected what kinds of cars manufacturers build for and sell in the U.S., you might think about it a little more...

It's beyond absurd that half the vehicles I see on my commute to workie are HUGE trucks and SUVs while CO2 continues to climb. Stupid...

Again, EV trucks will be meeting passenger car CAFE standards, so your point is irrelevant. Changing from the Bolt to the SUVs/trucks removes more ICE trucks from their production numbers. It would be far easier to make another ICE car to pass CAFE standards than an ICE truck to pass CAFE standards, even with the softer regulations. It makes far more sense for them to eliminate ICE SUVs/trucks from the books, besides the fact that SUVs/trucks are far more popular.

You are making a claim without substantiating it. You’re trying to make a ligic argument over an evidence based argument. It’s a claim I’ve made too, but I have realized that it is vacuous claim without any hard numbers to back it up. Here are the hard numbers for you to make some calculations:

https://www.nhtsa.gov/laws-regulatio...e-fuel-economy
https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-4.../section-531.5
https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-4...ter-V/part-533

What you need to show is more than just that the CAFE standards are less for SUVs and trucks, but that it would be easier to pass CAFE standards with an SUV over a car despite the SUV weighing more, having parasitic AWD/4WD, worse aerodynamics, a larger engine, etc.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Sasquachulator

I dunno what platform the bolt is on but the Equinox EV is on its own dedicated EV platform (Ultium) is it not? That probably helps keeps the costs down. Look what Toyota had to do, they didnt do a good job of making an EV transition platform (E-TNGA) or even use it all that well and now they're fast tracking a pure dedicated EV platform for next gen EV use. ANd alot of this is due to how Tesla manufacturers an EV....aside from cost cutting to shit they dont have to share anything in an ICE counterpart, so they're not restricted by ICE packaging.

GM was and is still losing money on every Bolt were they not?
Besides, small cars dont sell in the N/A market anymore (Which the Bolt is...and dont care how many EV nutjobs cry about how the Bolt is the cheapest EV out there...not everyone wants a Bolt or can use its size, especially in North America) so getting an Equinox sized CUV/SUV is probably automatically better for the bottom line and sales numbers.

Again, like I said a few posts ago, they could have built a new Bolt on the new platform instead of building a new Equinox on the new platform, but they are doing the Equinox because it sells better and has higher margins.

I don’t know if they are losing money on the base Bolt like GM said they were losing money on the base model Corvette, but they sold $50k Bolts as well. Kind of a harder sell for people to buy a $50k Bolt, regardless of being fully loaded.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by MyHybridBurnsGasAndTires

he's google searching his way through every single discussion here, its not fair to expect him to do any thinking about this subject

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

Again, EV trucks will be meeting passenger car CAFE standards, so your point is irrelevant.

Point is, we should never have given non-work trucks/SUVs a break on CAFE. The transition from ICE to electric could have been smoothed out a LOT if we hadn't decided that it was good for more and more people to switch over from 3400-3600 lb. somewhat aerodynamic cars to 4000-5000-6000+ lb. gigantic bricks. Still should do it, get the major CO2 emitters out of daily-commute duty.

It makes far more sense for them to eliminate ICE SUVs/trucks from the books, besides the fact that SUVs/trucks are far more popular.

Part of the reason they are more popular is because regs have made them easier to develop.

You are making a claim without substantiating it.

My claim is this: They have made it much easier on trucks/SUVs, and they have also made it easier on bigger cars vs. smaller cars. The effect that has had on what manufacturers make available is non-zero.

[Ohio Enthusiast]

Originally Posted by ZDan

Point is, we should never have given non-work trucks/SUVs a break on CAFE.

I'm sure truck breaks on CAFE helped, but compare to Europe, where there are no breaks for larger vehicles, people still prefer crossovers to hatchbacks. I'm sure you can fill books and doctoral theses on the relation between car manufacturers, car regulations and car buyers, but my dumbed down take is that it's preferable for everyone to have bigger vehicles (at least in the short term).

Well, everyone except the environment (and us in the long run).

[Spuds]

Originally Posted by Ohio Enthusiast

I'm sure truck breaks on CAFE helped, but compare to Europe, where there are no breaks for larger vehicles, people still prefer crossovers to hatchbacks. I'm sure you can fill books and doctoral theses on the relation between car manufacturers, car regulations and car buyers, but my dumbed down take is that it's preferable for everyone to have bigger vehicles (at least in the short term).

Well, everyone except the environment (and us in the long run).

I'm not entirely sure this is true.

[alex87f]

Originally Posted by Spuds

I'm not entirely sure this is true.

Afraid it is :/

Not as much as on the US market, but it's an issue nonetheless.

[Ohio Enthusiast]

Originally Posted by Spuds

I'm not entirely sure this is true.

One of many analysis on this - https://www.jato.com/oems-are-sellin...more-vehicles/

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by ZDan

Point is, we should never have given non-work trucks/SUVs a break on CAFE. The transition from ICE to electric could have been smoothed out a LOT if we hadn't decided that it was good for more and more people to switch over from 3400-3600 lb. somewhat aerodynamic cars to 4000-5000-6000+ lb. gigantic bricks. Still should do it, get the major CO2 emitters out of daily-commute duty.

I don't think you have thought through what you are proposing. How would they have prevented people from buying trucks and SUVs or how would they verify the vehicles were used for work or towing? Is this only for new cars or old cars? What if someone wanted to just have it for personal use to tow a trailer or haul stuff on their property? What if people wanted to go off-roading, camping, rock crawling, etc? If they had the exact same standards regardless of class then we would either see looser standards for cars too or the sharp decline of many trucks from the already low percentage of 10-15% at the time, or we would have seen inflation (passing down the cost of work trucks) at a time when the country was at record inflation with interest rates around 18% and facing a gas crisis.

Should the government penalize people for polluting more by driving too much and living too far away from work, so could someone own a truck if they drove it less than 5k miles a year? I'm trying to wrap my head around how you expect the government to regulate this industry or what people want to buy.

Originally Posted by ZDan

Part of the reason they are more popular is because regs have made them easier to develop.

My claim is this: They have made it much easier on trucks/SUVs, and they have also made it easier on bigger cars vs. smaller cars. The effect that has had on what manufacturers make available is non-zero.

How have CAFE regulations made them easier to develop? How have CAFE standards incentivized them to be bigger? Again, you are making claims without evidence. You are trying to rationalize your way without anything concrete. You are trying to say CAFE regulations are disproportionately soft on SUVs and trucks, but this is an unsubstantiated claim. All we know is that trucks get a softer standard, but that standard could be proportional to cars or could be even worse than it is for cars pound-for-pound or something.

There are other reasons vehicles are bigger and people like SUVs/trucks. Crash/safety standards have required cars to be heavier/bigger/taller hoods (trucks and SUVs were already big). Manufactures have also developed vehicles on global architectures that are bigger than bespoke platforms, and they do this because those bigger platforms are more accommodating to multiple models. To offset this bulk, manufactures have made ever more efficient powertrains, downsized engines, used lighter materials, decreased drag, etc. As people left the cities for the suburbs, they had the space for larger vehicles too. The rise of SUVs and trucks happened when the price of gas plummeted during the late eighties and nineties. When I was in high school in 2000, gas was 99 cents a gallon, which was cheap for that time, equivalent to $1.75/gal today, where it is $5.50+ right now. Manufactures were able to sell the Hummer or other cars because people had no problem affording the gas.