quick questions about this car in snow

[BRZBlack]

Get a set of Blizzak WS70's on 16 inch steel wheels. Carry a plastic shovel, and a bag of cat litter in the trunk. Stay away from snow deeper than a foot (to avoid plowing) and you will be good. Going on my second Chicago winter and the first went smooth with these tires. Never lost control. getting out of parking spots on city streets required me to TURN OFF TC or you just won't move at all. Don't drive like an a-hole and you will be fine.

[bluesman]

Originally Posted by BRZBlack

Don't drive like an a-hole and you will be fine.

Those are truly

[stonenewt]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

He knows he is just yanking his chain!

Mentally I just correct the typos in his username

[Dpforlife]

Drove all winter in New England with 2 50lbs sand bags from Home Depot over the rear wheels and never had a problem.

[NOHOME]

Originally Posted by Dpforlife

Drove all winter in New England with 2 50lbs sand bags from Home Depot over the rear wheels and never had a problem.

Word of advice to those with extra weight in the back:

The Miata guys discovered this 25 years ago and it bears mentioning: The car will want to turn around if it has more weight in the back. Try throwing a dart backwards if you need a practical demonstration.

With snowtires, this car seems perfectly capable unless the weather has reached "nobody should be out here in the first place" conditions. At that point it is a common sense flaw, not a design flaw.

[D88]

Originally Posted by NOHOME

Word of advice to those with extra weight in the back:

The Miata guys discovered this 25 years ago and it bears mentioning: The car will want to turn around if it has more weight in the back. Try throwing a dart backwards if you need a practical demonstration.

With snowtires, this car seems perfectly capable unless the weather has reached "nobody should be out here in the first place" conditions. At that point it is a common sense flaw, not a design flaw.

I'm glad to see this was brought up. The added weight will help with hill starts and generally getting started on ice but if the back end slides out, the added momentum from the weight gain will encourage the car to continue spinning right around. So there's something to be gained and lost here by adding weight.

[bluesman]

Originally Posted by D88

I'm glad to see this was brought up. The added weight will help with hill starts and generally getting started on ice but if the back end slides out, the added momentum from the weight gain will encourage the car to continue spinning right around. So there's something to be gained and lost here by adding weight.

It's more than just that. I posted this yesterday - it's one page back in this thread:

Originally Posted by bluesman

If that bag o' sand is placed well behind the rear axle, the floor pan acts as a lever to shift the weight bias rearward by far more than 50 lbs. This lightens steering, reduces front grip, and increases off-throttle oversteer - so it can lead to a snap spin when backing off the throttle in a slippery turn or when even a little sideways. A bag of sand is most useful to spread on ice for traction, if you get stuck - and you want to carry it as far forward in the trunk as you can to minimize the downside.

When you change one thing, you change everything. And the weight distribution isn't the only factor of importance. Moving weight around changes the vehicle's polar moment of inertia, which is the primary change when a spinning ice skater pulls in his or her arms to turn faster. If you put more mass at the very back, you increase momentum in the direction the rear end is sliding (i.e. the backwards dart example). But if you increase the relative mass between the axles, the effect on PMI does the same thing it does to a skater - you spin faster in the same place.

[Superhatch]

All of the farmers where I grew up always put two bags of sand in their old rwd pickups in the winter. I don't have any experience with it personally but most of the time if a group of farmers all do something its usually because they have results.

But...as I noted before LOTS of us drive this car in the winter with no issues.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Superhatch

All of the farmers where I grew up always put two bags of sand in their old rwd pickups in the winter. I don't have any experience with it personally but most of the time if a group of farmers all do something its usually because they have results.

But...as I noted before LOTS of us drive this car in the winter with no issues.

Around me they also hold their trucks together with baling wire and use random parts from the barn for repairs but I don't think I would do it with my car!

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by Superhatch

All of the farmers where I grew up always put two bags of sand in their old rwd pickups in the winter. I don't have any experience with it personally but most of the time if a group of farmers all do something its usually because they have results.

But...as I noted before LOTS of us drive this car in the winter with no issues.

So, you're comparing the 86 to a pickup? Do what you want but from a first-principles standpoint, @bluesman is dead on.

...ok, except for the spinning skater analogy. Not sure where you were going with the whole conservation-of-momentum thing.

[Superhatch]

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

So, you're comparing the 86 to a pickup? Do what you want but from a first-principles standpoint, @bluesman is dead on.

...ok, except for the spinning skater analogy. Not sure where you were going with the whole conservation-of-momentum thing.

Yup. That's exactly way I was doing. I was in no way was discussing the idea of weight over the rear wheels and its effect on vehicles in snow...Just a direct comparison between the 86 and a pickup.

Obviously there are two winter driving experts in this thread. One says the 86 is useless in the snow. We should all take his advice and just garage our cars through the winter and buy trucks...But ffs don't put any sand in the bed.

[bluesman]

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

@bluesman is dead on....ok, except for the spinning skater analogy. Not sure where you were going with the whole conservation-of-momentum thing.

Simple - putting those sandbags all the way at the back of the car increases its polar moment of inertia, which means it's less sensitive to steering input, it's less prone to spin, and spins will be slower. But if the rear does break loose, it'll be harder to stop the skid until the rear is in front. So when the rear breaks loose, the rear will end up leading the car (the backwards dart analogy) unless stopped by a snowbank or guardrail in mid-skid. It's the skater with his arms held wide apart.

If you put those sandbags as far forward as you can (e.g. against the back of the raised rear seat), you reduce the car's polar moment of inertia. This makes it more sensitive to steering input, more prone to spin, more likely to keep spinning, and more likely to spin faster. It's the skater with her arms tucked in at her sides.

Shorter wheelbases make PMI a more critical factor in handling. So shorter lighter cars like ours can be affected by even 50 pounds of sand put in the wrong place during winter driving.

Weight at ends of car + loose rear end = slower spin to 180 or less. Weight toward center of car + loose rear end = fast 360s.

[wheelhaus]

This will be my 3rd winter with the 86, and I'm coming from several FWD cars, half a dozen Subarus- from base Imprezas, a WRX, two STIs, and an Evo. The 86 is obviously not an ideal snow car, but it does just fine with snow tires if you don't drive like an a-hole as mentioned above. Avoid deep snow and keep your inputs smooth and progressive. GOes without saying dedicated snow tires are a must.

I also believe that snow drifting at low speed is a GREAT way to learn better car control, and how throttle can be used to steer the rear end. Even if you never EVER drift in the dry, it's a key skill to maintaining control *just incase* the car starts to slide you'll find yourself reacting correctly on reflex. Turn TC off and go have fun. Just don't practice in traffic, please...

[wheelhaus]

Originally Posted by bluesman

Simple - putting those sandbags all the way at the back of the car increases its polar moment of inertia, which means it's less sensitive to steering input, it's less prone to spin, and spins will be slower. But if the rear does break loose, it'll be harder to stop the skid until the rear is in front. So when the rear breaks loose, the rear will end up leading the car (the backwards dart analogy) unless stopped by a snowbank or guardrail in mid-skid. It's the skater with his arms held wide apart.

If you put those sandbags as far forward as you can (e.g. against the back of the raised rear seat), you reduce the car's polar moment of inertia. This makes it more sensitive to steering input, more prone to spin, more likely to keep spinning, and more likely to spin faster. It's the skater with her arms tucked in at her sides.

Shorter wheelbases make PMI a more critical factor in handling. So shorter lighter cars like ours can be affected by even 50 pounds of sand put in the wrong place during winter driving.

Weight at ends of car + loose rear end = slower spin to 180 or less. Weight toward center of car + loose rear end = fast 360s.

Isn't there something to be said for the weight on the rear axle applying more pressure to the tire's contact patch? If there's more weight, it effectively acts as a larger fin on a dart. I understand sliding on ice is an entirely different scenario, but as a slide begins in snow the tires do have some directional authority as they roll, it's not a complete loss of grip.