I'm conflicted on coilovers

[wparsons]

Originally Posted by Ashikabi

Again, I can't tell you if it handles better or worse because I don't have a good way to make an objective judgement on it. My mistake on the roll center and bump steer. Whiteline offers tie rod ends to correct rollcenter and bump steer for about $250. You could replace every arm and joint on the car and still not hit $2500 though. Unless you only buy Cusco, then it's like LCAs and a sticker for $2500

I don't think the whiteline parts correct enough for a 2" drop, and they only fix the front. For a big drop, you're going to need LCA's all around, plus some other stuff. It'll add up in a big hurry.

[Ashikabi]

Originally Posted by wparsons

I don't think the whiteline parts correct enough for a 2" drop, and they only fix the front. For a big drop, you're going to need LCA's all around, plus some other stuff. It'll add up in a big hurry.

LCA 400$, toe arm 250, trailing arm 400, bump steer 250. That's $1300. Pretty sure you can fix rear bump steer for less than $1200 so... not that much. And rear trailing arms are likely optional but I included it for completeness.

[wparsons]

Originally Posted by Ashikabi

LCA 400$, toe arm 250, trailing arm 400, bump steer 250. That's $1300. Pretty sure you can fix rear bump steer for less than $1200 so... not that much. And rear trailing arms are likely optional but I included it for completeness.

You missed fron LCA, and I wouldn't trust $400 rear LCA's if you're going to be driving the car hard. Correcting rear roll center is also more involved than the front. You need to raise the inner rear pivot of both the LCA and UCA. You'll probably want to raise the diff while you're at it to put the axles at less of an angle as well.

[Ashikabi]

Originally Posted by wparsons

You missed fron LCA, and I wouldn't trust $400 rear LCA's if you're going to be driving the car hard. Correcting rear roll center is also more involved than the front. You need to raise the inner rear pivot of both the LCA and UCA. You'll probably want to raise the diff while you're at it to put the axles at less of an angle as well.

I think we can all agree Cusco is a very respectable company with quality parts, no? Rear LCA is just over $500 from ft86SF. Nearly all rear LCAs are in the 400-500$ range. Subframe risers: 100$ if you can do the work yourself. Front LCAs from Cusco are quite spendy at 800$. Add shipping and you are in fact nearing $2500.

I don't believe hardly any of these parts are necessary to "handle well". Do you want to win the championship? Then maybe you need them. But lowering the car 2 inches will in no way "destroy"the handling, make it unsafe to drive, or anything of the sort. It might not handle AS WELL as a stock height FRS but as mentioned above, the spring rates and dampers will likely make up the difference. For anyone who isn't a SERIOUS racer, the parts necessary to fix your alignment is all you'll need. If your only concern is better lap times you either wouldn't be looking at lowering your car this much or you would already know what you needed

[wparsons]

Originally Posted by Ashikabi

I think we can all agree Cusco is a very respectable company with quality parts, no? Rear LCA is just over $500 from ft86SF. Nearly all rear LCAs are in the 400-500$ range. Subframe risers: 100$ if you can do the work yourself. Front LCAs from Cusco are quite spendy at 800$. Add shipping and you are in fact nearing $2500.

I don't believe hardly any of these parts are necessary to "handle well". Do you want to win the championship? Then maybe you need them. But lowering the car 2 inches will in no way "destroy"the handling, make it unsafe to drive, or anything of the sort. It might not handle AS WELL as a stock height FRS but as mentioned above, the spring rates and dampers will likely make up the difference. For anyone who isn't a SERIOUS racer, the parts necessary to fix your alignment is all you'll need. If your only concern is better lap times you either wouldn't be looking at lowering your car this much or you would already know what you needed

Again, my whole point was simply that if you're going to upgrade it, it should work better than stock. If not, it's not working well. It might not be falling apart, but if it's worse than stock it's not handling well IMO.

[gled21]

Originally Posted by RJasonKlein

It sounds like your highest priority is dropping the car roughly 2", but you're looking for a solution that won't bottom out? There's no 'free lunch' when choosing suspension options - with few exceptions (and you'll pay dearly for them), if you lower your car substantially you'll face challenges over bottoming out. Our cars have very little travel in the rear to begin with and lowering the car 2" burns up most of what you had to begin with. You have a few options: You can pony up for a premium coilover that can better deal with the short travel, you can run insanely high spring rates which will destroy your car's handling and ride, or you can rethink your desire to run your car that slammed. It all depends on your priorities - if you're a kid and you're all about the stance, go for it, otherwise I'd recommend you rethink things. There are a lot of solutions that will improve looks and performance on a budget, but most of the guys here aren't going to tell you to slam your car - we love the way these cars handle too much to do that!

Oh, by the way...it's just my opinion, but I'd stay away from the BC Racing coilovers.

If you dont mind me asking why should we stay away from BCr's? Im in the market for coils as well and I was considering the BCr's or the BC RAM's. To be clear my intentions are to keep the car a daily while able to recreationally track/canyon carve. Also what are better alternatives considering my intentions?

[wparsons]

Originally Posted by gled21

If you dont mind me asking why should we stay away from BCr's? Im in the market for coils as well and I was considering the BCr's or the BC RAM's. To be clear my intentions are to keep the car a daily while able to recreationally track/canyon carve. Also what are better alternatives considering my intentions?

Why do you want coilovers? That'll help shape what you should be looking for.

Most cheap coilovers handle worse than stock shocks/springs, or stock shocks with good lowering springs.

[gled21]

Originally Posted by wparsons

Why do you want coilovers? That'll help shape what you should be looking for.

Most cheap coilovers handle worse than stock shocks/springs, or stock shocks with good lowering springs.

increased performance when spirited driving mainly, also to get rid of the wheel gap

[Ashikabi]

Originally Posted by gled21

If you dont mind me asking why should we stay away from BCr's? Im in the market for coils as well and I was considering the BCr's or the BC RAM's. To be clear my intentions are to keep the car a daily while able to recreationally track/canyon carve. Also what are better alternatives considering my intentions?

BC has a reputation for making a cheap low quality product. ie: won't be as comfortable, perform as well, last as long as more expensive coils. They are good for slamming(extreme drop) due to the way they are valved internally(to my knowledge). But to ride that low without bottoming out they must be very stiff which makes for a rough ride. Back pain and general discomfort can come from this. I just switched from Stance coils to Fortune 500s, which both cost about the same but the ride on the Fortunes is so much smoother(girlfriend approved) because the Stance coils are meant for extreme drops. A few coils have been mentioned in this thread that are excellent choices. I haven't seen the Tein Z flex mentioned yet but I have heard great things about them despite them being one of the cheapest options available. Of course if your only goal is a mild drop, lowering springs can't be beat for cost. A few hundred dollars will get you what you want instead of the $800ish for Teins or $1250 for Fortunes. If you want to be able to pay with damper settings and adjust ride height, then coils are your only choice. If you have lots of money to spend I believe the KW v3 is generally considered the best you can get without getting TOO crazy

[mav1178]

Originally Posted by gled21

If you dont mind me asking why should we stay away from BCr's? Im in the market for coils as well and I was considering the BCr's or the BC RAM's. To be clear my intentions are to keep the car a daily while able to recreationally track/canyon carve. Also what are better alternatives considering my intentions?

Originally Posted by Ashikabi

BC has a reputation for making a cheap low quality product. ie: won't be as comfortable, perform as well, last as long as more expensive coils. They are good for slamming(extreme drop) due to the way they are valved internally(to my knowledge). But to ride that low without bottoming out they must be very stiff which makes for a rough ride. Back pain and general discomfort can come from this. I just switched from Stance coils to Fortune 500s, which both cost about the same but the ride on the Fortunes is so much smoother(girlfriend approved) because the Stance coils are meant for extreme drops. A few coils have been mentioned in this thread that are excellent choices. I haven't seen the Tein Z flex mentioned yet but I have heard great things about them despite them being one of the cheapest options available. Of course if your only goal is a mild drop, lowering springs can't be beat for cost. A few hundred dollars will get you what you want instead of the $800ish for Teins or $1250 for Fortunes. If you want to be able to pay with damper settings and adjust ride height, then coils are your only choice. If you have lots of money to spend I believe the KW v3 is generally considered the best you can get without getting TOO crazy

The funny thing about people trashing BC (in general), is that BC Racing is an OEM for many, MANY coilovers that we love on the marketplace. There's a handful of companies actually making shocks themselves, and everyone else sources parts from essentially 5 suppliers.

I really need to print out the "coilover made by BC Racing" dyno charts and show what cheap coilover shock dynos look like after 30 minutes of repeated runs.

-alex

[86TX]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

I guess they don't care about handling, just the looks ...

false, i am really wanting to find good coilovers with pretty good ride quality


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[MeisterR]

Here is what I have seen:

1. Cheaper suspension isn't all bad
You CAN make a good suspension within the $1000 mark.
You will have a few design limitation, but it is something that can be over come if you have the right experience.
Just because ONE suspension isn't great at that price range, it doesn't mean ALL suspension is bad at that price bracket.

2. NOT all suspension in the same price bracket are the same.
While some factory do make suspension for multiple brands, OEM supplier can make specific request because it is their unique product.
There will again be limitation as well as increase in production cost, but it is something many do all the time.

These specific request are cover under a non-disclosure agreement.
The details of one customers are not share with anyone else.
What that mean is even if it's the factory own product line, it will not have the specific request of an OEM supplier.
To "steal" the customer request and implement it in any other product is a direct breach of the non-disclosure agreement.

3. Expensive suspension doesn't always mean a better track suspension.
One of the very common questions I get ask is how well MeisterR suspension will work on track.
I get ask this a lot because customers who decide to track their car but purchase twin-tube suspension (Tein / Koni / GAZ / etc) have often experience fade near the end of the session.
That is when the damper get hot enough where the oil inside have change viscosity.
So the overall damper feel "softer", because the thinner oil is providing less resistance.

A good mono-tube damper such as MeisterR will handle a full track session without fade issue.
The mono-tube are able to deal with the heat generated from the damper.
This provide consistent performance during hard usage.

This is one point I try to stress because I seen it time and time again where twin-tube dampers just don't live up to hard track usage.
There are exception, but this is a general over view.

4. Coilovers DOES NOT have to be a hard ride
A common view is that coilovers aren't good for street car because they are design for track and will ride very stiff.
That is wrong as coilovers can be just as comfortable as any OEM dampers.
The difference between a stiff ride or a comfortable ride is how the suspension were designed.

The reason that this get pass around because alot of coilovers provider simply focus on "track use" on their product.
This mean customer buy their product, install onto their road car, and the ride is horrible no matter how you adjust the suspension.

It is always going to be a compromise.
You cannot have a suspension that will work well on a track car using slick tires, that will also do well on a tarmac rally stage.
But you can get a suspension that will work in a tarmac rally stage to work relatively well on the track.
It might not be as hardcore as a pure track setup, but it will work well enough as an all rounder.

That is how we generally valve our fast road suspension.
You want the suspension to do everything well, but you want the suspension to focus on it's main job.
That is to provide good ride quality and compliancy over uneven road surfaces, something we face 90% of the time when we are driving our car.

Hope that is a few point to help out members who are thinking about what to do.


Jerrick

[RJasonKlein]

Originally Posted by gled21

If you dont mind me asking why should we stay away from BCr's? Im in the market for coils as well and I was considering the BCr's or the BC RAM's. To be clear my intentions are to keep the car a daily while able to recreationally track/canyon carve. Also what are better alternatives considering my intentions?

Several other people have directly answered your question about BC Racing coilovers, but my main reason for suggesting that you avoid them came from negative reviews and comments here on the forum. I don't have direct experience with them and that should be taken into consideration, and I learned something from Alex (@mav1178) when he said that BC Racing makes coilovers under contract for a number of other coilover companies. That said, he didn't sound impressed with their shock dyno curves under heavy use.

As for alternatives based on your needs and usage, the big question I would have for you is do you specifically need the adjustability that coilovers provide? If not (and, to me, it sounds like you don't), I would suggest looking at a set of RaceComp Engineering 'Yellow' coils and bumpstops, a set of Bilstein B8 struts and dampers, and OEM Subaru 'crash bolts' to increase front camber. It's a highly regarded mono-tube set up that provides a nice drop, reasonable spring rates for daily use, very good damping, ride, and wheel control, with OEM fitment and none of the hassles of coilovers. Good luck!

[mav1178]

Originally Posted by RJasonKlein

I don't have direct experience with them and that should be taken into consideration, and I learned something from Alex (@mav1178) when he said that BC Racing makes coilovers under contract for a number of other coilover companies. That said, he didn't sound impressed with their shock dyno curves under heavy use.

Ah I think it was wrong words used. The one we tested was very very good, great dyno chart after running for 30 minutes.

Some BC kits actually perform quite well out of the box and on the road. There's several misconceptions about coilovers though that people have.

One is rear upper mount. Pillowball, while great for performance, is uncomfortable for street. If you ride in two identical cars with one as rear pillowball and other as rear rubber mount (identical shock and spring rate), the rubber mount coilovers will be more comfortable.

Another is spring rate. Everyone wants stiffer spring rates but they don't truly understand how much it affects the ride quality. Good shocks are great but you still will have a stiffer/more uncomfortable ride.

At the end of the day, the first and most basic question is: what do you want your coilovers to do for you?

Lowering the car
Better ride quality than stock
Worse ride quality than stock
Performance
Adjustment
Service
etc

BC has made shitty coilovers for so many years that they are now one of the better makers on the marketplace. They continue to be "cheap" because that's what 99% of the market demands of them. BC can make high-end products on par with the best available worldwide, but then people would just label them as "cheap" and you'd be back at square one.

Ever wonder how these highly touted suspension companies with no in-house capability to manufacture their own shock bodies do it? They would use companies like BC to make their own goods.

-alex