Official: New Alpine A110

[WolfpackS2k]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

The i3 was just as successful as many cars on the road. Again, you are making statements without defining the criteria you are using to make your statements. What metric are you using to say it wasn't successful? Profits, production numbers, years in production...?

By your own admission, the system can be used to improve an already balanced system with minimal weight (active diff on the M3 is like 10-20lbs heavier). You suggested EVs are flawed, so they are using the torque vectoring to fix a problem, yet they may be just taking advantage of something inherently available. The skateboard design has a low center of mass; the battery is center, so it can have a good polar of inertia for rotation; the motors are between the drive wheels, so weight is directly over the wheels for traction; a front and rear engine can create a near 50/50 weight distribution. This is all good stuff, or even better stuff.

There are variants of the same car optioned without the active diff, and they still destroy older variants.

Because you said the i3 wasn't popular, so by your own statement someone would reasonably conclude you care if a car is popular. Seems popular enough if it is going to be in production for ten years and sales have gone up each year.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_i3#Production

Again, the point of the BMW i3 is to demonstrate that EVs aren't necessarily heavy. A different form factor version of the BMW i3 in a sports car format could be even lighter. Range and speed aren't necessary for a sports car. Going to the track is a consideration for enthusiasts, but not really on the list of concerns when producing an affordable sports car. The vast majority of Miatas and 86s never see a track or get a single modification. I don't see why an EV would be different.

An EV Miata is totally doable with today's technology and still be compelling. It might even sell alongside an ICE version, and it could do well, especially at autocross or for short tracks, but it would be even better as a no-fuss weekend Sunday driver that would need little maintenance. For anyone in a city like me with a 3 mile commute, and who is 30 minutes from the coast and who has a two hour loop for canyon driving, 150-200 mile range is more than enough.

I agree that it all seems/is possible. But nobody is interested in building a driver centric EV sports. Most automakers are currently interested in finding out how to build EVs at a profit, and nothing else (almost all failing at it too). if BMW already did it, why aren't they building on that then? Instead of selling 4000lb+ plus ovals? I apologize for underestimating the i3's sales. I never see them, ever (and I see more Teslas than I can remember on a daily basis). I'd reply to the comments about the torque vectoring, but this conversation is getting too fragmented, lol. I agree EVs can more easily attain the "ideal" weight distribution for handling, I wasn't trying to suggest that.

Originally Posted by Kodename47

I don't understand why? Admittedly there are no cheap performance hybrids, but there's nothing to say they couldn't implement an electric motor that would benefit the performance characteristics. I'm a little surprised the GR86 wasn't developed in this way. After all there are plenty of mild 48v Hybrids out there.

Hybrids add weight, complexity and cost. Three things that each by themselves is in complete conflict with the Miata...nevermind all three.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

Hybrids add weight, complexity and cost. Three things that each by themselves is in complete conflict with the Miata...nevermind all three.

Some mild hybrids combine the starter motor, alternator, and flywheel, so in a sense complexity is reduced, sort of... A battery pack (or supercapacitors or combination) sized for energy recapture from braking rather than for huge range can be compact and lightweight. And you get an on-demand power-adder from the electric motor so ICE could be a bit smaller/lighter/cheaper and more efficient.

I think mild hybridization should surely be a part of the approach to reducing CO2 emissions. But in the US just applying same CAFE standards to trucks and SUVs as they do to cars and eliminating the adjustment that gives larger cars a break would be huge in reducing CO2 emissions.

[Racecomp Engineering]

I personally wouldn't blame the "environmental green movement" for a lack of lightweight interactive sports cars. Lightweight is good for the environment. But the market has never been that interested in those cars and with brands consolidating all of their models into a handful or even a single platform...it doesn't make much sense. The market wants big power, tech, insulation, and acres of piano black plastic.

Which sucks, but this isn't really a new thing.

As for new electrified sports cars...I started writing this for an article but then sat on it:

"Right now at Mazda, there’s a team focused on how to make an electric sports car as rewarding to drive as the Miata. And a big part of that is software engineers tweaking the accelerator tuning, torque vectoring, electronic steering, brake by wire, and brake regeneration. Trying to make it feel more natural and cohesive. More like a sports car and less like a space ship.

At least I hope so. The next Miata will at least be a hybrid and it will set the bar for what an attainable electrified sports car can feel like to enthusiasts. It will have lots of tech and it will still feel like a Miata. Some people will still be upset.

Climate, politics, the market, whatever. The bottom line is that sports cars have to change to survive. But they don’t have to suck."

Anyway, I really want an Alpine A110.

- Andrew

[WolfpackS2k]

Originally Posted by ZDan

I think mild hybridization should surely be a part of the approach to reducing CO2 emissions. But in the US just applying same CAFE standards to trucks and SUVs as they do to cars and eliminating the adjustment that gives larger cars a break would be huge in reducing CO2 emissions.

Yes, I agree. It's particularly maddening for sports car enthusiasts to see them go extinct/get fat from regulations (crash and emissions) while in the meantime SUVs and trucks basically get a pass. It's nonsensical.

(of course just follow the money)

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

Yes, I agree. It's particularly maddening for sports car enthusiasts to see them go extinct/get fat from regulations (crash and emissions) while in the meantime SUVs and trucks basically get a pass. It's nonsensical.
(of course just follow the money)

It's not the "crash and emissions regulations". Fact is Subaru and Toyota are producing a modern S13 240SX at the same weight, with much more power and greater chassis stiffness, *much* nicer interior, at same relative price point as Nissan did in the early 90s. And the Miata is not too far off from early-90s era weight as well. While meeting all those modern crash and emissions regulations.

If regs are to blame, it is indeed the regs that have been heavily rigged by the automakers and fossil fuel industry to actually *encourage* bigger and heavier cars, and *especially* MUCH bigger and heavier trucks and SUVs. If they all had to meet the same fuel economy and CO2 emissions standards, we wouldn't have a huge portion of the population driving around in 4000, 5000, 6000 lb. tanks. Totally agree, it's beyond ridiculous...

[Ohio Enthusiast]

Originally Posted by Racecomp Engineering

I personally wouldn't blame the "environmental green movement" for a lack of lightweight interactive sports cars. Lightweight is good for the environment. But the market has never been that interested in those cars and with brands consolidating all of their models into a handful or even a single platform...it doesn't make much sense. The market wants big power, tech, insulation, and acres of piano black plastic.

My take is that 20-30 years ago if someone wanted some pep and a sporty driving experience in a car they had to go to a proper sports car. So the true hardcore enthusiasts were augmented with plenty of softcore drivers. Today most cars are decently quick and tire and suspension technology make even the most boring commuter car being able to out-handle the average driver, so the softcore enthusiasts don't need a sports car anymore. Hence the shrinking market.

[Yoshoobaroo]

Originally Posted by Ohio Enthusiast

My take is that 20-30 years ago if someone wanted some pep and a sporty driving experience in a car they had to go to a proper sports car. So the true hardcore enthusiasts were augmented with plenty of softcore drivers. Today most cars are decently quick and tire and suspension technology make even the most boring commuter car being able to out-handle the average driver, so the softcore enthusiasts don't need a sports car anymore. Hence the shrinking market.

Yup. My dad traded his 997 for a Macan GTS. I get it. On paper it is pretty much a dead ringer for the performance figures of the 997, and it’s more practical. It matches the 0-60, slalom speed, almost everything is exactly the same.

But man, the 911 would raise the hairs on your neck when you drove it hard. The Macan just doesn’t.

[WolfpackS2k]

Originally Posted by ZDan

It's not the "crash and emissions regulations". Fact is Subaru and Toyota are producing a modern S13 240SX at the same weight, with much more power and greater chassis stiffness, *much* nicer interior, at same relative price point as Nissan did in the early 90s. And the Miata is not too far off from early-90s era weight as well. While meeting all those modern crash and emissions regulations.

Half true IMO. While it's all still possible (as evidenced above) it requires much more effort, will power and dedication from the automakers than it used to. And compared to the past, at this point most simply don't care about passion projects that in most cases won't have large (or any) profit. A bridge too far, if you will.

[Red-86]

I honestly put the decline of affordable, lightweight sports-cars down to changing consumer preferences (anecdotally, people are getting fatter, lazier, and like the higher seating of SUVs they can ‘walk into’ over low sports cars they have to ‘fall down’ into). As others noted, it is still possible to engineer lightweight RWD sports cars that pass all modern emissions and safety regulations since Mazda and Toyota/Subaru are still doing it.

But the other manufacturers probably look at Mazda’s and Toyota’s sales numbers and ask, why bother? Why should the other automakers invest the hundreds of millions or even billions needed to develop a new sports car for relatively modest sales when a fraction of that investment can produce yet another SUV or dual cab ute variant on an existing platform that will sell in far greater numbers? They’re in the business of making money with the least risk, and sports cars are are high risk and expensive to develop where SUVs are low risk.

I’m actually hopeful that improving EV tech might make lightweight, awesome handling sports cars that are easier to develop possible. I’m open to an EV MX-5 if they can keep the weight down (it doesn’t need a heavy, long range battery). It has the potential to have an even lower centre of gravity and better acceleration with next generation EV motors and batteries. The main barrier will be similar to the existing barrier to ICE sports cars… will consumers buy enough of them to justify the development?

[ACT86]

As a lightweight vehicle enthusiast, this thread is making me sad. Spot on with everyone buying SUVs - herds of them everywhere these days.

[Red-86]

Originally Posted by ACT86

As a lightweight vehicle enthusiast, this thread is making me sad. Spot on with everyone buying SUVs - herds of them everywhere these days.

I hate them with a fiery passion. For one thing, many of them are huge. They hog the road and fill up car parking spaces that still seem to be sized for much smaller 1980s cars. But I also hate what they have done to normal car sales… coupes, hatches, sedans and wagons are all dying off, being replaced by SUV lineups. Other than the elevated seating position and slightly easier loading of heavier items, there is nothing the typical SUV does that a good wagon cannot do better. The wagon is more aerodynamic, lighter and so uses less fuel on average. It has a lower COG and handles better. It doesn’t block the forward view over the roof as much. It looks better! And many wagons actually have more cargo space than many SUVs (especially these fugly ‘coupe’ SUVs). But the market has spoken apparently, and passenger cars are going the way of the dodo as SUVs take over the roads.

The thing that really irks me is that at the same time we have a push to make vehicles as ‘green’ as possible, we live in the heyday of the lumbering great SUV! I mean, look at the things that make a car as efficient and environmentally friendly as possible… aerodynamic (so it must have a low profile), lightweight (so it has less mass to move), small (uses less materials). The SUV is the antithesis of all of these! Even as engineers wring every last ounce of efficiency out of engines, many of the fuel efficiency and emissions benefits of improved engines are lost because these modern engines need to haul around these huge and heavy vehicles! It’s so ridiculous.

[Stonehorsw]

Originally Posted by Red-86

I honestly put the decline of affordable, lightweight sports-cars down to changing consumer preferences (anecdotally, people are getting fatter, lazier, and like the higher seating of SUVs they can ‘walk into’ over low sports cars they have to ‘fall down’ into). As others noted, it is still possible to engineer lightweight RWD sports cars that pass all modern emissions and safety regulations since Mazda and Toyota/Subaru are still doing it.

But the other manufacturers probably look at Mazda’s and Toyota’s sales numbers and ask, why bother? Why should the other automakers invest the hundreds of millions or even billions needed to develop a new sports car for relatively modest sales when a fraction of that investment can produce yet another SUV or dual cab ute variant on an existing platform that will sell in far greater numbers? They’re in the business of making money with the least risk, and sports cars are are high risk and expensive to develop where SUVs are low risk.

I’m actually hopeful that improving EV tech might make lightweight, awesome handling sports cars that are easier to develop possible. I’m open to an EV MX-5 if they can keep the weight down (it doesn’t need a heavy, long range battery). It has the potential to have an even lower centre of gravity and better acceleration with next generation EV motors and batteries. The main barrier will be similar to the existing barrier to ICE sports cars… will consumers buy enough of them to justify the development?

Some japanese may be working on cartridge type of battery 🔋.

[chaoskaze]

Originally Posted by weederr33

I've always found the Alpine conflicting for me. On one hand I find it very slick and cool. But on the other hand, it comes off as squished and ugly.

That one thing about car design now, a lot of them look terrible on paper/photo but are actually pretty sleek in person.

Originally Posted by Red-86

I also hate what they have done to normal car sales… coupes, hatches, sedans and wagons are all dying off, being replaced by SUV lineups. Other than the elevated seating position and slightly easier loading of heavier items, there is nothing the typical SUV does that a good wagon cannot do better. The wagon is more aerodynamic, lighter and so uses less fuel on average. It has a lower COG and handles better. It doesn’t block the forward view over the roof as much. It looks better! And many wagons actually have more cargo space than many SUVs (especially these fugly ‘coupe’ SUVs).

Atleast you can still buy car/wegons like the nice honda oddesy wegon that's like low to the ground from factory in Australia? They only have abomination in north america cuz soccer mom's demands it.

[soundman98]

Originally Posted by Red-86

I hate them with a fiery passion. For one thing, many of them are huge. They hog the road and fill up car parking spaces that still seem to be sized for much smaller 1980s cars. But I also hate what they have done to normal car sales… coupes, hatches, sedans and wagons are all dying off, being replaced by SUV lineups. Other than the elevated seating position and slightly easier loading of heavier items, there is nothing the typical SUV does that a good wagon cannot do better. The wagon is more aerodynamic, lighter and so uses less fuel on average. It has a lower COG and handles better. It doesn’t block the forward view over the roof as much. It looks better! And many wagons actually have more cargo space than many SUVs (especially these fugly ‘coupe’ SUVs). But the market has spoken apparently, and passenger cars are going the way of the dodo as SUVs take over the roads.

The thing that really irks me is that at the same time we have a push to make vehicles as ‘green’ as possible, we live in the heyday of the lumbering great SUV! I mean, look at the things that make a car as efficient and environmentally friendly as possible… aerodynamic (so it must have a low profile), lightweight (so it has less mass to move), small (uses less materials). The SUV is the antithesis of all of these! Even as engineers wring every last ounce of efficiency out of engines, many of the fuel efficiency and emissions benefits of improved engines are lost because these modern engines need to haul around these huge and heavy vehicles! It’s so ridiculous.

but look at the numbers. a 2019 86, a nearly textbook example of a small, lightweight, barebones car, only manages to achieve 21mpg city/ 28mpg highway.

the 2019 kia sorrento for an example, in all it's 'heft' lays claim to 22mpg city/29mpg highway.

so the SUV is more efficient by the numbers, even if it's only 1 mpg... if one's got a family, there's really no difference, so people are understandably buying the biggest thing that they can afford that suits their needs. small cars have a ton of caveats. i'm single and i don't even like taking the 86 for grocery shopping. no matter how few bags i get, it always somehow turns into a champion-level tetris game...