Will there ever be a cheap tuning solution for the GR86 after Cobb's announcement?

[Blighty]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

The difference is that now the government is actually going to do something. This isn't new. The laws massively increasing the potential fines came out a couple of years ago.
They didn't "kill their business" it was murdered by the new laws.
If people had kept it to the track then it would never have come to this.

So explain what's changed exactly.

How are Cobb liable for a person using a racing tune off the racetrack?

I mean, I'd really like to know that its just not some muppet board of directors with a sudden conscience about climate change that have decided that "oh people will still buy our product but now we are guilt free".

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Blighty

So explain what's changed exactly.

How are Cobb liable for a person using a racing tune off the racetrack?

I mean, I'd really like to know that its just not some muppet board of directors with a sudden conscience about climate change that have decided that "oh people will still buy our product but now we are guilt free".

The disclaimers do not cover them under the law and the fines can be in the millions. The new(ish) laws say it is illegal to sell ANY product (including tunes) that affects the pollution control devices or fuel system of a vehicle. It does not say it is legal to sell them just for track use.

It is NOT just them. I am sure that Australia has or will have soon a law just like it. Every country in the world is passing similar if not identical legislation. Most of the European countries laws are probably going to be even tighter.

https://www.epa.gov/enforcement/nati...es-and-engines


People are trying to counter it but they don't stand much chance.

https://www.sema.org/epa-news

Welcome to reality of the wave of the future.

OH and as to what's changed. The same tech that makes it so easy to create custom tunes makes it just as easy to check them. If it should be XYZ tune and they find ABC you are busted.

[Lantanafrs2]

I read on another forum that shiv is working on the new car. We'll see.

[soundman98]

Originally Posted by Blighty

So explain what's changed exactly.

How are Cobb liable for a person using a racing tune off the racetrack?

I mean, I'd really like to know that its just not some muppet board of directors with a sudden conscience about climate change that have decided that "oh people will still buy our product but now we are guilt free".

the saying that most applies here is "the nail that sticks out gets hammered down"

the legal landscape is a crazy minefield.
https://www.sparkfun.com/news/1428

all those hid bulbs that fit in halogen housings? entirely illegal. on the front of any headlamp, it lists the specific type of bulb that the headlamp was approved, certified, and designed for to meet specific output and pattern specifications set forth by DOT regulations. any alteration(like installing hid/led in a halogen housing) from that original light source is illegal by the letter of the law(this was conveniently written by OEM's this way, but that's a whole other discussion).

many of those modded bulbs were shipped into the country labeled as "mining lamps" or similar, hoping to pass customs by luck of the draw--many companies importing them even planned for a certain amount of the shipments to be discovered and destroyed as part of their business planning.

few to none were ever labeled on customs documents as 'headlamp bulbs'. with those, DOT and Customs specifically talked about "intent of the end user". while all the bulbs were specifically labeled as "off-road use only", customs destroyed a ton of packages of them over the years because the obvious end user intent was to use those bulbs on the road, and subject to DOT rules and regulations for output and beam pattern. there were also some federal charges levied against some of the importers under similar grounds that they were knowingly selling non-compliant headlamp bulbs the public. in the late 2000's, vehicle lighting was THE issue at hand. most people will barely even remember it happened anymore. i've still got the ticket for my 2 tiny blue led license plate bolts, while now it's literally a standard to have an offroad rig with multi-colored strobing lighting all over it...

this scenario is no different. country-wide problems are like whack-a-mole. tuning has simply reached a threshold that it's the biggest mole in the mobility industry to justify being whacked.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

OH and as to what's changed. The same tech that makes it so easy to create custom tunes makes it just as easy to check them. If it should be XYZ tune and they find ABC you are busted.

And the over the air updates everyone seems to love in new cars makes this even easier. Overlord looks down from above, sees your car is "acting funny" and there you go, all fixed in a few seconds by a fresh download back to spec.

[Blighty]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

The disclaimers do not cover them under the law and the fines can be in the millions. The new(ish) laws say it is illegal to sell ANY product (including tunes) that affects the pollution control devices or fuel system of a vehicle. It does not say it is legal to sell them just for track use.

It is NOT just them. I am sure that Australia has or will have soon a law just like it. Every country in the world is passing similar if not identical legislation. Most of the European countries laws are probably going to be even tighter.

https://www.epa.gov/enforcement/nati...es-and-engines


People are trying to counter it but they don't stand much chance.

https://www.sema.org/epa-news

Welcome to reality of the wave of the future.

OH and as to what's changed. The same tech that makes it so easy to create custom tunes makes it just as easy to check them. If it should be XYZ tune and they find ABC you are busted.

Australia doesn't have your clean air act - an ultra open ended and powerful piece of legislation that little baby is.

So nothing has changed legally for the US, its just that the EPA have decided to take on the diesel emission defeat market based on that well diesel engines need them, and on the way they are taking down everything else.

I mean I can see why you would want to target diesel defeat products, its a huge market that makes big emissions. But yeah it does on the surface seem pretty dire - I do wonder if you can avoid being under their crosshairs (so don't do anything with diesel - because that the study they are using to justify its position and seems to be part of every one of its prosecutions), then after a bit of time the special 'Initiative' they are doing will subside somewhat.

Well anyway, where there is a will there's a way right.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Blighty

Australia doesn't have your clean air act - an ultra open ended and powerful piece of legislation that little baby is.

So nothing has changed legally for the US, its just that the EPA have decided to take on the diesel emission defeat market based on that well diesel engines need them, and on the way they are taking down everything else.

I mean I can see why you would want to target diesel defeat products, its a huge market that makes big emissions. But yeah it does on the surface seem pretty dire - I do wonder if you can avoid being under their crosshairs (so don't do anything with diesel - because that the study they are using to justify its position and seems to be part of every one of its prosecutions), then after a bit of time the special 'Initiative' they are doing will subside somewhat.

Well anyway, where there is a will there's a way right.

Hate to break it to you but Australia has had similar legislation in place for 5 years now.

https://www.legislation.gov.au/Details/C2017A00104

Even the "non road" engines have a certification requirement. This would include their tune.

https://www.legislation.gov.au/Details/F2018C00452

Marking "for off road only" no longer works even there. It all comes down to one line really:

Offences and civil penalties apply:

(a) if an emissions‑controlled product is imported or supplied and the product is not certified, or marked as required;

[spcmafia]

Originally Posted by Lantanafrs2

I read on another forum that shiv is working on the new car. We'll see.

I was about to say, Shiv might make a comeback, but I wouldn't hold my breath. The customer support of OFP is a bit lacking. Even if Open Flash Performance cracks the ECU, I would bring it to Steve99 right after it, if I had a second gen. Steve is the man.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by spcmafia

I was about to say, Shiv might make a comeback, but I wouldn't hold my breath. The customer support of OFP is a bit lacking. Even if Open Flash Performance cracks the ECU, I would bring it to Steve99 right after it, if I had a second gen. Steve is the man.

Ya great Shiv turns up for a couple of years, rakes in some cash and then disappears again. That is true long term value right there.
Steve of course soldiers on!

[CincyJohn]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Ya great Shiv turns up for a couple of years, rakes in some cash and then disappears again. That is true long term value right there.
Steve of course soldiers on!

I understand why some people may have issues with Shiv/OpenFlash. Having said that, the system worked perfect for me. I would gladly go back to OpenFlash for Gen2 (although I wouldn't want to be one of the first). Of course, I readily admit to being able to take advantage of being a very late adopter. I never went to Steve or WayneRoms but would have.

One of the reasons I haven't sold my OFT+ yet (as well as my JDL UEL catted headers) is in hopes that it might be usable on the Gen2. I would gladly pay an upgrade fee to OFT for tunes if necessary. And yes, I would almost immediately go to Steve or Wayne thereafter (assuming they were supporting the platform).

Having said that, I would also go the Ecutek (or other) route for a little more money if that ends up being the first (or only) option. The one thing I don't want to be is in the first wave of cars (if possible) - but I also am not sure how long I will be able to wait if/when the tunes become available especially if there is an e85 tune for catless headers and it ends up being as good as I think it might be. Since I go through about 22-23k miles a year, right around year 2 is when the 45k portions of the warranty will be done so that might work out OK.

[RToyo86]

Open flash performance will probably still come up with something all though it doesn't offer the same degree of adjustment, and isn't well suited to boost.

[OkieSnuffBox]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

And the Ram truck forum is screaming "FUCKING RICERS".
There is simply no way to blame one certain group.
It is the sum total of everybody that felt "For off road use ONLY" did not apply to them or was just a industry inside joke. This includes the coal rollers, pop and bang tune posers, sports car crowd, muscle heads, and so on and so on. Not one or two sub groups.
The only group I can think of that would be exempt would be the "Let get the highest mileage possible through mods" Prius forum (yes that is a thing).

And just so that anybody thinks this is a new issue they were talking about this back in the late 70s when the emissions control stuff first appeared. The only difference was that all the tunes and mods were mechanical and not electronic back then so it was almost impossible for them to get evidence to enforce.

I was thinking of the "coal rollers" making it something that people could actually see. And the numerous YouTube videos showing them rolling coal on cyclists/joggers/etc.

It brought "visibility" to the issue, so to speak.

If I drive down the street in a BRZ with a mild exhaust, the general public wouldn't know if it's tuned, supercharged, or running a turbo.

[CincyJohn]

Originally Posted by RToyo86

Open flash performance will probably still come up with something all though it doesn't offer the same degree of adjustment, and isn't well suited to boost.

Well, TruBoost on the GR86 forum says with apparent inside knowledge that Shiv is working on it. Just went to their site and confirmed no "news." I will believe it when I see it - but am hopeful.

Yes, assuming it is a similar situation to Gen1, it will not be conducive to boosted Gen2 cars (of course, there isn't even a boosted Gen2 option yet, so there is that...).

As for adjustment, not sure I see much difference between EcuTek and OFT. Obviously, EcuTek requires you to work with a tuner who then, presumably, uses a dyno to help dial in what are the stock tunes. OFT had guys like Steve and Wayno (and Shiv actually) who did the same thing just working off ECU datalogs. If you want to squeeze every last HP out of it, I could see EcuTek being better. But I do believe OFT provided great value.

[Lantanafrs2]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Ya great Shiv turns up for a couple of years, rakes in some cash and then disappears again. That is true long term value right there.
Steve of course soldiers on!

You've used shivs tunes?