Tune Reviews: My Experiences with OpenFlash, EcuTek, (TBD)

[ck-GT86]

I want to share my journey of tunes with the beloved FR-S. Given I've been through only 2 now, I'm sure there will be more during my time of ownership.

Now unless you have the same components and specifications as I do (listed below), I expect neither of you to have the experiences I've had. Really, no two cars can ever be the same nor will they produce similar numbers.

Car Specifications:
2013 Scion FR-S
ECU: ZA1JA01C

Engine Work:
P&L EL Catted Headers
P&L Overpipe (slightly dented due to fitment issues, which really was because of a defunct downpipe)
Grimmspeed header gaskets
CircuitWerks Pulley Set
Grimmspeed Intake, previously K&N drop-in filter/modified snorkel/Mishimoto intake pipe
Berk High-Flow Catted Frontpipe
Perrin 3" Resonated exhaust
RS*R Ran-Up Oil Additive
Replaced factory high pressure fuel pump 3x (THREE TIMES!!!)

Moving on, take everything you read with a grain of salt, should you need to.....

History:
I took the FR-S off the lot in August 2013, with little knowledge of the platform other than knowing I really wanted it. I scoured this forum picking up parts here, there, everywhere. From TOM's, to a filter, to lights, it kept going.

An invitation was pushed my way to a local meet happening a couple months away. Quite hesitant, I didnt want to go, but I'm glad I did. A local vendor scheduled to booth at the event was selling a WORKS AB-R exhaust; I wanted some growl from the relatively quiet engine and this seemed like a cost-effective solution. No matter which manual car I had, the exhaust was always modified so I could hear the engine to engage shifting. Plus, it was an opportunity to pickup the exhaust and meet local 86's (to whom which some have become best friends).

It didn't cross my mind that I'd buy anything else that day...boy was I wrong. That was where I first met the Vishnu guys. They had a booth up showcasing their OpenFlash Tablet just released for the Twins. +18 WHP with a palm sized tablet - heck, why not!?

I was thoroughly impressed with how quick the tune was done, how even myself could do it, and all at a competitive price; you cant beat $499. I left that day with a huge dent in my wallet, but came home with a completely different car. Torque dip - GONE.

Since then, I progressively kept up to date with the newer maps. Came from version 1.2 all the way up to 2.06; it's been a little under 14 months of OFT ownership. I never got into datalogging, or really even using the OFT outside of upgrading maps. It wasn't until my first session at the track a few months ago to start using the diagnostics tools. The OFT has come a very long way, and it's the most robust tool I've seen in it's price range. There's a long list of diagnostics you can pull from your car using the OFT: engine load, RPMs, AFRs, throttle %, timing, it goes on...And I like the fact that you can clear CEL's, though I've never had to.

OFT Usage:
The OFT is so simple that it doesn't need instructions. It's a tablet you can pick up, tap a few times, flashed, done. It's an all-in-one tool eliminating the need to get an OBD II bluetooth diagnostic dongle and unnecessary gauges. Never needing the tablet after flashing, it spent most of it's time in my backseat. And I even kept the tunes on when taking my car in for service -- in and out undetected.

Ethanol:
I was heavily resistant to using E85, even though my friends with the OFT continued to praise it's existence whenever the topic came up. The problem with E85 for me is the lack of stations around the area and I'll admit....though I've heard of E85, I had no idea how to properly use it. I eventually gave in. At this point, I was far behind everyone else that had switched to E85 with OFT, several map revisions before. The ability to load up to 5 maps was convenient and loading the BIN files made it stupid easy.

Crossroads:
As the engine mods started to staple off, it came to a point of, "What should I do next to the car?". Do I go FI, should I keep the car as is, has everything been worthwhile, or should I consider a different car that's got the ponies from factory? The curiosity continued after seeing numerous 86 drivers posting their dyno numbers on the forums. Could I potentially hit 200WHP? I definitely should be with everything I've done so far...

Mustangs, Jets, Packs, and MaHa:
Another area I was unfamiliar with...which dyno should I go for and why? I looked around on Yelp to see what people were saying about dynos. Called around a few places: some didnt answer, and some didnt have availability within that week.

Some of you can relate with me when you want something, you want it now. My last call was with Mann Engineering -- they had availability at the end of the week. Mann was a familiar name, I actually won a T-shirt donated by them at one of the events and their Facebook page showcased a couple of cars that I'd known the owners to. So sweet, I'm getting my car in and I'm definitely going to be hitting 200WHP.

Swiggles and Bumps:
The MaHa dyno runs way longer than any of the other dynos I looked in to. This particular one runs an "Endurance" method, which starts to calibrate itself around 1500rpms and ramps all the way up till max speed. For whatever reason, my car wasn't able to get the dyno to calibrate itself running 5th gear around the required range. The technician floored it, car started to shake, and couldn't move the dyno properly. With that being said, a completely stock FR-S was able to calibrate that same dyno in 5th at 1500rpms. So, the dyno run was dropped to 4th gear, but started to report at a higher range of 2500rpms.

Its not a pleasing feeling knowing your car is having issues and the dyno isn't even anywhere being complete. Didn't end there though. Once the fairly ascending line continued to climb in 4th gear, it suddenly dipped off then climbed back up at 4700rpms. Watching the car on dyno from outside the room, there's a very faint discrepancy you can catch if you pay attention. This is visible later in one of the clips near the bottom; car is strapped in, no outside variables to distract the naked eyes and ears.

1 of the 4 pulls, dip around 4600

Another pull, also showing a dip

For comparison, this is a base Twin with no mods, no dip

Final output, 172WHP with an abnormal dip on all 3 dyno runs. Puzzled now, I took my car back and headed home through a longer route to see if I can replicate the dip. Faced another problem, 4th gear at 4700 rpms is beyond 70mph. Its a bit difficult to maintain that that speed with Bay Area traffic after work-hours. I dont even know if I could catch any dip given all the road noise and feedback, while in traffic.

There was a time a couple of months back, I made a mental note (notice the language) when comparing my car's engine capabilities against a couple friends on empty, non-public highway stretches at night.

Having similar mods other than an UEL header and 2.5" exhaust, one friend pulled away heavily when I thought for sure I'd have him. The car felt like there was a hesitation in 5th, as if the car had tapered off and didn't want to go any further even though I had my foot to the floor. I knew something was wrong, just never thought too much into it.

Calls, Messages, and a Thread
Leading up to all of this, a few of you may be familiar with my other thread stating the said above. I've gotten mixed messages swaying in different directions. Shiv was even kind enough to take time out of his hectic schedule to personally test my car -- reported back nothing unusual. He showed me how to read the datalogging on the OFT, again not showing any abnormality. Offered a dyno as a peace of mind, but that didn't go to plan since I picked up the Grimmspeed intake and didn't hesitate to install it. He too had a hectic schedule with SEMA lined up. And running a dyno after the new intake would skew everything found since components are different from the findings.

I think the OFT is great, but it's more so for a broader spectrum of users; an audience that might not have as much components or the same as me. I wanted to squeeze out every ounce of HP I could get, and to see if any other tune could figure out what was happening with my car. So I jumped ship...

EcuTek
I consoled with the local 86's that too have been through a tune or more. Many pointed me to EcuTek, again also a familiar name since the Jackson Racing Supercharger with EcuTek is my ideal FI upgrade. The most dissatisfying thing though about EcuTek is the cost; it's not for the feint of heart. Everything has a cost to it: maps, cable, license. OFT has free maps (lifetime!!) -- cable wise, one-end plugs to the tablet, other end to your OBD port and it's included in your purchase. I've probably lost a few teeth biting this huge bullet.

There were a lot of doubts going into the tune.
- How am I going to switch maps, and is it even possible?
- I'm going to be locked to E85, forever.
- I'm going to lose all diagnostic capabilities of the OFT
- I can't sell the EcuTek tune if I decide to sell or part the car
- Cost of dyno tunes are a huge fraction of the Jackson kit, maybe I should save for that instead
- Flex Fuel is going to cost even more teeth
- Can Toyota detect the tune if I take it in for warranty service?

Delicious
Having getting over the concerns from above, I started asking around for who would be one of the best at tuning with EcuTek. Two tuners local to me are FFTech and Mann Engineering. I defaulted with Mann since I had no experience with FFTech. There was also an option of doing a remote tune but nobody has time for that. Fortunate for me, Bill from Delicious was scheduled to come up weekend of the December 5th. They were able to wiggle me in after a few calls back and forth.

Tune Day
I returned a couple of hours before the car was supposed to finish. I made it in time to see Bill fine tuning things along the way. There were a couple of times when he said he thought he was finished, but found even more things to tweak. The end result layered on top of the baseline shows improvement early on, then eliminates the dip completely and adds some on top of that. Preliminary runs got me excited. I dont have any explanation as to what was done to fix that, their modifications are sealed shut.

Here is a video of the baseline run (still OFT tuned on v. 2.06), wheels couldn't get going in 5th gear and the car starts to shake.
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g063V-jAhRc"]Scion FRS - MAHA Dyno - Will Not Accelerate (5th gear) - YouTube[/ame]

And here is the 4th gear pull showing the dip, happens at about 68MPH. Same reported symptom when I first went to Mann
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6c2-9qQzeeM"]

[/ame]

The final output (slightly disappointing) was about the same as the OFT -- 171/172whp consistently. Honestly, I was really hoping to see at least 185 - 190whp range. I'll give it to Delicious though for putting in some gains along the curve. I guess that's the max I can squeeze out for now, it'd be interesting when manufacturers start putting out parts with some serious gains. Vishnu did a great job putting down numbers for the Twins. Two big named tuners got similar numbers, can't go wrong with either.

Video of after Ecutek, 4th gear pull
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8jf5U9Zj2A"]Scion FRS - MAHA Dyno - No Power Dip (4th Gear) - YouTube[/ame]

For science, here is a 5th gear pull, again after EcuTek
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kys8Uc77D9I"]Scion FRS - MAHA Dyno - Acceleration High Load / Low RPM (5th gear) - YouTube[/ame]

Here's one last video for fun, not sure which pull it is
https://www.dropbox.com/s/jze31h67kg...90514.mp4?dl=0

Ecutek Dyno Sheets

4th gear pull, Ecutek layered on-top of the OFT base-line pull

And here is a 5th gear pull, note the starting point of the dyno - 1500rpm range

Added Features
There was an option to have flat-foot shifting, auto-blipping, and launch control added to the tunes. I want to say OFT allows for the same features (not entirely sure), but it's nice to know these add-on's are available. I opted to have all removed.

From what I understand of the said above:
Flat-foot Shifting - keep your foot down on the gas while shifting and engaging/disengaging clutch compared to traditional method of letting off the gas, shifting, then gas -- although sounds cool, it'll wear down your transmission if used constantly.
Auto-blipping - engine maintains a certain RPM when letting off throttle, in and out of corners quicker
Launch Control - rpm bounces around at a set RPM giving you an optimal launch when you dump the clutch

Opinions
To me, EcuTek wins in overall power output with my car, but OFT wins in overall value. The two tunes are just about even when ramping up until EcuTek starts to pull away at 4,000RPMS.

Cost wise, you're spending an arm and a leg with EcuTek, and getting a lot from OFT at fraction of the cost. It would be nice to have the diagnostics tools back, other than that, usability is just as easy.

The OFT lets you switch maps within a few taps, followed by the key-on/off cycle. With EcuTek, I pull back on the cruise control to get it in setup mode, flick the stick up or down and the tachometer will change indicating which map I'm on (1,000rpms for Map 1 -- 2,000rpms for Map 2 -- 3,000 rpms for Map 3, etc.) That's a neat looking indicator.

I opted to have E80, E60, E30, and E10 maps loaded (for an additional fee) in-case I ever needed to switch back to pump gas. The additional maps work as transitions: If I were to go to E85 to 91 for example, I'd run down the tank of E85, fill up with 91, switch the map to E30 since some E85 is left in the system, run that completely down, fill up with 91, then switch to E10. Same applies if I were to go from 91 back to E85, but in reverse order (E10 --> E60 --> E80). In a way, it's a Flex Fuel kit minus physical hardware.

I'd think OFT would be up for a challenge if EcuTek were to significantly drop their prices. We all know this isn't happening, so thats why I sway so heavily on OFT being the best HP mod per dollar.

TL;DR
If you want something quick, likely flash once and forget it, best value -- OFT

If you want a little more, at the cost of price and time -- EcuTek

I've had a pleasure working with both tuners, you can't go wrong with either @Shiv@Openflash or @DeliciousTuning

More parts and tunes to come!


.ck

[Shiv@Openflash]

I'm still skeptical about that sharp dip that only happens to non-Ecutek tunes on Mann's Dyno and not on any other Dyno with any other car. Did you by any chance datalog any of those runs? The only way to get that sharp of a drop is if the Dyno is applying brakes or if the throttle is closing. A datalog would conclusively tell which of the two is happening. And if you still don't feel that dip on the road, I would say that it's not your car that is doing that.

[ck-GT86]

Originally Posted by Shiv@Openflash

I'm still skeptical about that sharp dip that only happens to non-Ecutek tunes on Mann's Dyno and not on any other Dyno with any other car. Did you by any chance datalog any of those runs? The only way to get that sharp of a drop is if the Dyno is applying brakes or if the throttle is closing. A datalog would conclusively tell which of the two is happening.

I'm curious to see if my friend's car would produce the same dip, running the 2.06 map. I dont have the OFT anymore, so we could datalog his car and send it your way.

.ck

[Shiv@Openflash]

Originally Posted by ck-GT86

I'm curious to see if my friend's car would produce the same dip, running the 2.06 map. I dont have the OFT anymore, so we could datalog his car and send it your way.

.ck

I suspect he will see the same weird dip on Mann's Dyno. My suggestion to Dyno the car on any other Dyno that isn't affiliated with any particular tuner. And there are dozens of them in the Bay Area. Preferably a Dynojet since those are intertial Dynos and can't be mucked with to create absurd loading conditions as possible with eddy current loading dynos. I saw the video and I'm not sure what kind of test requires a 45 second long WOT pull. Those kind of pulls are suitable for towing vehicles, not passenger cars. Strange decision.

[DeliciousTuning]

Originally Posted by Shiv@Openflash

I'm still skeptical about that sharp dip that only happens to non-Ecutek tunes on Mann's Dyno and not on any other Dyno with any other car. Did you by any chance datalog any of those runs? The only way to get that sharp of a drop is if the Dyno is applying brakes or if the throttle is closing. A datalog would conclusively tell which of the two is happening. And if you still don't feel that dip on the road, I would say that it's not your car that is doing that.

The power loss is also felt on the road, it is in the review.

Originally Posted by Shiv@Openflash

I suspect he will see the same weird dip on Mann's Dyno. My suggestion to Dyno the car on any other Dyno that isn't affiliated with any particular tuner. And there are dozens of them in the Bay Area. Preferably a Dynojet since those are intertial Dynos and can't be mucked with to create absurd loading conditions as possible with eddy current loading dynos. I saw the video and I'm not sure what kind of test requires a 45 second long WOT pull. Those kind of pulls are suitable for towing vehicles, not passenger cars. Strange decision.

Vehicle manufacturers perform the same tests and specifically on MAHA dynos.

Cheers,
William Knose
Delicious Tuning

[Shiv@Openflash]

Originally Posted by DeliciousTuning

The power loss is also felt on the road, it is in the review.



Vehicle manufacturers perform the same tests and specifically on MAHA dynos.

Cheers,
William Knose
Delicious Tuning

William, I drove the car with the owner. Neither he nor I could feel any such hesitation as shown by his first trip to Mann. Something that severe would be about as subtle as a kick in the face. I would be like stabbing the brakes during a pull on the road. In the Dyno video posted you can even see the revs/mph drop for a moment before picking back up. That is not a subtle hesitation. I don't believe the owner ever felt anything like that from my conversations with him or from his previous posts on this forum.

And yes, manufacturers perform steady state pulls and varying ramp up rates to test thermal management, fuel consumption, emissions, etc. But if you are tuning for actual power, it's sensible to test conditions that closely replicate conditions you would see in the real world. I wouldn't exclusively test a passenger car with a 45 second long constant ramp up rate any more than I would a tow truck with a 5 second intertial pull.

The pumping efficiency of any engine is dependent upon not just rotational speed but also rate of rotational speed change. Especially when pushed to either extreme.

Also keep in mind that subjecting a car to a excessicely long dyno pull is unrealistic unless the Dyno cell has a wind tunnel capable of providing airflow speed commensurate with vehicle speed. Most tuning Dyno facilities fall short here. Hence the importance of realistic run durations and inter-run cool down periods. The testing conditions you created in the videos is bizarre. Did you even conduct any tests capturing realistic acceleration rates?

[steve99]

That torque and power hole is bizzare.


not disputing the dyno is measuring it but,
If you look the percentage overall drop and the rate of drop off of that torque hole measured on that MANN dyno and compared it to the standard torque dip .

The standard torque dip is noticable, that one would be like hitting the rev limiter, its a vertical drop and about twice the size of the standard torque dip

If it happened on the road , it would be very obvious

[ck-GT86]

I don't understand the notion behind any intention to forcefully cause a dip by stepping on the brake or altering the dyno, especially for tuners that are local to each other. I doubt either of them are hurting for business; we all go to the same local meets and events. We know each other's names and faces, who drives what, and what each does.

I'm going to accept that there was something wrong with my car, be that tune or not, and it's been tweaked to run better than ever.

.ck

[themajesticone]

Originally Posted by Shiv@Openflash

Also keep in mind that subjecting a car to a excessively long dyno pull is unrealistic unless the Dyno cell has a wind tunnel capable of providing airflow speed commensurate with vehicle speed. Most tuning Dyno facilities fall short here. Hence the importance of realistic run durations and inter-run cool down periods. The testing conditions you created in the videos is bizarre. Did you even conduct any tests capturing realistic acceleration rates?

I think their facility is capable of providing airflow speed commensurate with vehicle speed but I may be wrong.

[Nivek]

OMG, that is like a bobble tune. I am impressed that you took the time to share your experience. You seem pretty damn calm throughout given that either your $20k car or cheap tune were at fault here--can't blame the maha if the maha wasn't reproducing the dip with the ecutek tune IMHO.

I am curious. Shiv implied that you could not feel or experience the dip under any circumstances. Is that true? Did you ever experience hesitation on the road?

Thank you for taking the time to present your findings and share your experience. I would be going crazy if I EVER saw any car I owned produce that kind of curve.

[Toyota John]

ECUTEK is a tuning tool not a tune in it self. OFT is a tool as well but with free base maps. Any tune is only as good as the tuner tuning it. Just so you don't confuse some people.

Oh I wanted to add that I have no strange power dip with the OFT tunes. That has to be car, dyno or operator induced.

[ck-GT86]

Originally Posted by Nivek

OMG, that is like a bobble tune. I am impressed that you took the time to share your experience. You seem pretty damn calm throughout given that either your $20k car or cheap tune were at fault here--can't blame the maha if the maha wasn't reproducing the dip with the ecutek tune IMHO.

I am curious. Shiv implied that you could not feel or experience the dip under any circumstances. Is that true? Did you ever experience hesitation on the road?

Thank you for taking the time to present your findings and share your experience. I would be going crazy if I EVER saw any car I owned produce that kind of curve.

Thinking about this, it seemed to only happen at WOT, same amount of throttle as on the dyno. My car is my daily, used 90% of the time to get to and from work. Given the amount of traffic in the Bay Area, I hardly ever hit anywhere near 68mph. And if I do, I wouldn't have a reason to go WOT, I'd be in 5th or 6th by then.

It was only a few times when I've been on spirited runs with others did I notice a slight lag. Didn't think to look down at my dash, just took a mental note since its in a driving range out of my normal routine. I probably wouldn't have bothered to look into it if I never got it dyno'd. Situation would have been different if I used my car for different purposes.

.ck

[DeliciousTuning]

Originally Posted by Shiv@Openflash

William, I drove the car with the owner. Neither he nor I could feel any such hesitation as shown by his first trip to Mann. Something that severe would be about as subtle as a kick in the face. I would be like stabbing the brakes during a pull on the road. In the Dyno video posted you can even see the revs/mph drop for a moment before picking back up. That is not a subtle hesitation. I don't believe the owner ever felt anything like that from my conversations with him or from his previous posts on this forum.

And yes, manufacturers perform steady state pulls and varying ramp up rates to test thermal management, fuel consumption, emissions, etc. But if you are tuning for actual power, it's sensible to test conditions that closely replicate conditions you would see in the real world. I wouldn't exclusively test a passenger car with a 45 second long constant ramp up rate any more than I would a tow truck with a 5 second intertial pull.

The pumping efficiency of any engine is dependent upon not just rotational speed but also rate of rotational speed change. Especially when pushed to either extreme.

Also keep in mind that subjecting a car to a excessicely long dyno pull is unrealistic unless the Dyno cell has a wind tunnel capable of providing airflow speed commensurate with vehicle speed. Most tuning Dyno facilities fall short here. Hence the importance of realistic run durations and inter-run cool down periods. The testing conditions you created in the videos is bizarre. Did you even conduct any tests capturing realistic acceleration rates?

Shiv,

I am not going to debate your evasion of the topic of this thread. The problem exists, you are not looking into it any further and just throwing rocks. Take a step back, step outside the office and test the scenario and replicate it. It happens and can be replicated on the road, especially on a race track.

We are not going to do your homework. If you need to see how long it takes a stock fr-s/brz/86 to perform a 4th or 5th gear pull from 1500-7500 RPM, head to your local airstrip and test it out. You might be really surprised how long it takes...

If you have further MAHA dyno questions I am sure you contact MAHA directly and get your questions answered directly from them.

Cheers,
William Knose
Delicious Tuning

[Shiv@Openflash]

Originally Posted by ck-GT86

It was only a few times when I've been on spirited runs with others did I notice a slight lag. Didn't think to look down at my dash, just took a mental note since its in a driving range out of my normal routine. I probably wouldn't have bothered to look into it if I never got it dyno'd. Situation would have been different if I used my car for different purposes.

Just to clarify, what is depicted on the Dyno isn't a "slight lag". The dyno shows something akin to slamming against a 4800rpm rev limiter for a moment and then continuing to accelerate above that. This is something that has never been reported by any user or demonstrated on any other dyno. Or even in any of the hundreds of datalogs posted publicly on this forum. This wasn't even demonstrated in your own car we logged a 4th and 5th gear pull on the road. So I don't wan't anything to be misrepresented (even unintentionally).

Originally Posted by DeliciousTuning

Shiv,

I am not going to debate your evasion of the topic of this thread. The problem exists, you are not looking into it any further and just throwing rocks. Take a step back, step outside the office and test the scenario and replicate it. It happens and can be replicated on the road, especially on a race track.

We are not going to do your homework. If you need to see how long it takes a stock fr-s/brz/86 to perform a 4th or 5th gear pull from 1500-7500 RPM, head to your local airstrip and test it out. You might be really surprised how long it takes...

If you have further MAHA dyno questions I am sure you contact MAHA directly and get your questions answered directly from them.

Cheers,
William Knose
Delicious Tuning

Great Bill. Can you please provide directions on how OTS map users can replicate/induce this issue on the road?