Car and Driver is F-ing Stupid

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Train

I agree. I didnt mean to say Toyota and Subaru didn't listen but rather they worked on keeping the car as a momentum car while addressing some of its downfall the owners and reviews have brought to their attention in the past 5 years or so. They've clearly worked on the creature comforts and bringing the car "upto date" with new displays, materials, steering wheel controls and etc while attending to the performance needs much like you mentioned with HP and torque increase. I, too, feel that sales was a reason, especially when most cars on the market are packed with bunch of luxurious options and most people are basing their purchases on how much of these features they can get.

Those updates will continue until the car morphs into just another GT coupe like so many cars before it have done. The trend is already highly evident with the "upgrades" it has received. It is a simple matter of that is what the majority of the car buying public want and to sell more they need to meet that demand. The guys that screamed for a "sports car" had their crack at it and didn't buy enough so it is now time for them to move forward into different target groups.

[Summerwolf]

Originally Posted by FX86

i remember being on the Z forums and people complained about how the 370Z is slow and need 400 horsepower and 300lbs of torque to compete with the muscle ponies

it already has a V6 with 332hp and 270lbs of torque which was up there with the Porsche Cayman around that time and people still bitched about it

you can't please everyone

I think the main argument there is that when compared to its direct competitors it is a dog for the price. It doesn't help that Nissan is letting the Z die by not continuing to improve the vehicle.

[FX86]

Originally Posted by Summerwolf

I think the main argument there is that when compared to its direct competitors it is a dog for the price. It doesn't help that Nissan is letting the Z die by not continuing to improve the vehicle.

yeah they need to let it go...they kept the price the same which is higher than it's competitors but offered nothing new to compete against them..the new nismo goes for $45K which is absurd and not worth the price tag

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by FX86

i remember being on the Z forums and people complained about how the 370Z is slow and need 400 horsepower and 300lbs of torque to compete with the muscle ponies

it already has a V6 with 332hp and 270lbs of torque which was up there with the Porsche Cayman around that time and people still bitched about it

you can't please everyone

You nailed a part of it right there. No matter how much they bring it up there will be a group claiming it isn't enough. Make it 250 then it should be 300. At 300 it should be 350. Just look at the number of people that post here "thinking of buying one and want to boost to 300HP. Maybe I will go for a test drive some day". They are more fixed on that particular number than in how the car drives and anything lower is crap even though they have never even sat in one much less drove it.
Hell, people buy high horse power cars and then totally change them to get even more anyway so it just keeps moving the "best" number up.

[Fishbed77]

I don't think that what the dude says is such a big deal. It is the way he says it!
Be OK if it was an editorial piece but he is a tad too passionate about more HP for a review.

My guess is Subaru didn't pay as much for ad space as Hearst wanted.

[FX86]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

You nailed a part of it right there. No matter how much they bring it up there will be a group claiming it isn't enough. Make it 250 then it should be 300. At 300 it should be 350. Just look at the number of people that post here "thinking of buying one and want to boost to 300HP. Maybe I will go for a test drive some day". They are more fixed on that particular number than in how the car drives and anything lower is crap even though they have never even sat in one much less drove it.
Hell, people buy high horse power cars and then totally change them to get even more anyway so it just keeps moving the "best" number up.

Looks like the same crap happens on the GT-R forums

http://www.gtrlife.com/forums/topic/...-are-too-slow/

[extrashaky]

So now we've talked about this article for five pages and probably driven up the click count on that article. His editor will be happy.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by FX86

Looks like the same crap happens on the GT-R forums

http://www.gtrlife.com/forums/topic/...-are-too-slow/

And Celica, DGM, Z cars... ahhh shit the list is way too long to write.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by Speed2th

simply the writer never watch or read "initial D". But I think his point is valid for general AMERICAN readers - it needs a turbo. But they just don't know that 86 never intended to be FI or high output. It is suppose to a be fun and nimble eocno sports car allow every driver to approach their limit easily. people kept forget AE86 was a COROLLA

Originally Posted by davmandave

This. 100% this. The AE86 GTS debuted with ~125 HP, IIRC. It became a legend because it was balanced. It was an absolute monster downhill because it weighed almost nothing, and until the release of the 86, was still one of the only lightweight coupes in RWD configuration. At release, it was in every show room because it was (is) gorgeous.

Today, the 86 shines because it is lightweight, balanced, RWD, and looks fantastic. Oh, and it drives downhill like it is being chased by the devil. And it has found widespread success for the exact same reasons it did back in '83.

As everyone else said, haters gonna hate.

OMFG guys, it's great that your passion was inspired by a cartoon, but Initial D is derivative of actual racing history. Back in the 50's there was this guy called Colin Chapman, in England the economy was tighter, so big engine development would have been difficult, he designed cars that were light weight, handled well, and had aerodynamics in their favor because he'd never match up to Enzo Ferrari on engine alone.

He kicked everybody in the ass, made 'British engineering' a phenomenon and changed the way people thought about racecars.

Was he the first? Fuck no. NASCAR guys were removing interiors, windshield wipers, and rain gutters off their cars pre-war to outrun the IRS. Caroll Shelby first drove a small British roadster with a V8 in the late 50's and I'm sure thousands of engineers figured light = fast before our grandparents were born.

From Mini Coopers racing Mustangs to Lotus vs. Ferrari, power vs. weight has been written about for well over 50 years.

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nS4MIfA5i64"]2014 Australian Muscle Car Masters - Mini vs Mustang - YouTube[/ame]


I'm absolutely 100% positive you don't have to sit this guy down to watch Initial D to get the concept of a momentum car. He wrote an inflammatory article for the clicks, or maybe a moment of frustration that nobody is making the car HE wants, doesn't matter. Initial D may be the be all end all for a certain sect of enthusiasts, but in the broader picture it's a blip on the radar.


[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNF5sic8WHo"]Regular Car Reviews: 1985 Toyota AE86 Sprinter Trueno, Part 1 - YouTube[/ame]

[venturaII]

LOL - anime...

[Swift]

I am that guy.


I have not bought an FRS/BRZ yet because I do believe the power from factory should be higher...250-300hp.

Never ever stated it had to be forced induction from factory.

Will I buy one still? When I am ready. If they announced tomorrow production was stopping with a limited edition turbo model, I would be the first one at dealership.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by Swift

I am that guy.


I have not bought an FRS/BRZ yet because I do believe the power from factory should be higher...250-300hp.

Edelbrock will sell you a supercharger that puts you at ~230-240 whp (~290hp at the crank est.) and they'll warranty your car up to 30,000 miles on the odometer if you go to a 'certified installer'. I don't think anybody has blown an engine on their kit unless they were pumping a lot of boost or a custom tune.

Only costs about $5k. Upsize the wheels and good tires for <$2k, maybe some lowering springs if you feel like it for a couple hundred bucks and boom:

There's your TRD/STI model for ~$33k, less if you feel confident to give up warranty and buy used.

Odds are Toyota/Subaru will never ever do something like that on this chassis, and if they do it will cost as much as doing it via aftermarket AT BEST.

[CBR600RR]

How about a 2.5 litre NA engine, that makes 230 - 250 hp?


That is what I would go for!

[Lantana frs]

Most of these journalists are kids. I was a stupid kid myself. They worship hard numbers but won't be there when your turbod money toilet is on the tow hook.