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Old 10-22-2020, 03:56 PM   #253
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Ugm, this article did nothing to change my mind because it basically reinforced what I was saying I did not want, and I'm not the only one, including Tesla owners, that feel that way.

Question, what happens if you disable the ability for your Tesla to get updates? Does the car no longer drive? I'm asking because I don't know.

The very first comment in this article is a "do not want" scenario to me.
In the past it didn’t make a difference, but then it was a problem because many people weren’t doing updates, so I’m pretty sure they could be mandatory now. Tesla has the right to, at minimum, protect themselves from security breaches and from liability.

What Tesla should do is give owners the option of completely disconnecting from Teslas OTA updates and their server for security/hacker reasons. At such time, the car can no longer receive OTA updates, so if the owner wishes to reinstate those features then they will need to go to Tesla to first get a virus scan and then receive the update.

Similarly, Tesla should issue some type of formal recall on Autopilot technology. Because they have the means of updating this technology remotely, any refusal by the owner will be an acknowledgement of a forfeit of right to pursue litigation for a faulty system/part in the case of an accident, and any charges brought to the driver could possibly be seen as a willful act of negligence.
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Old 10-22-2020, 04:00 PM   #254
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My biggest issue with that is range. Unless your are replacing the chassis with a "skateboard" the range won't be there.

Also, let's make sure it's not an numbers matching or survivor car being converted.
Occasionally range will be decent because the chassis are relatively light for their size.
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Old 10-22-2020, 04:03 PM   #255
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In the past it didn’t make a difference, but then it was a problem because many people weren’t doing updates, so I’m pretty sure they could be mandatory now. Tesla has the right to, at minimum, protect themselves from security breaches and from liability.

What Tesla should do is give owners the option of completely disconnecting from Teslas OTA updates and their server for security/hacker reasons. At such time, the car can no longer receive OTA updates, so if the owner wishes to reinstate those features then they will need to go to Tesla to first get a virus scan and then receive the update.

Similarly, Tesla should issue some type of formal recall on Autopilot technology. Because they have the means of updating this technology remotely, any refusal by the owner will be an acknowledgement of a forfeit of right to pursue litigation for a faulty system/part in the case of an accident, and any charges brought to the driver could possibly be seen as a willful act of negligence.
And that last bit is the problem. Tesla gets away with releasing hot garbage for software because "it can just be patched later". It's not a feature, it's duct tape to avoid recalls because of poor QA.
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Old 10-22-2020, 04:08 PM   #256
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What Tesla should do is give owners the option of completely disconnecting from Teslas OTA updates and their server for security/hacker reasons. At such time, the car can no longer receive OTA updates, so if the owner wishes to reinstate those features then they will need to go to Tesla to first get a virus scan and then receive the update.

Similarly, Tesla should issue some type of formal recall on Autopilot technology. Because they have the means of updating this technology remotely, any refusal by the owner will be an acknowledgement of a forfeit of right to pursue litigation for a faulty system/part in the case of an accident, and any charges brought to the driver could possibly be seen as a willful act of negligence.
Yea, I agree with both of those, that would be an acceptable compromise for me, even if I had to pay to "catch up" at some later point.

With Autopilot, it probably should be a safety recall, because technically it is. I should then have the option of repair or turning it off as part of the recall, with the appropriate releases, paperwork, etc.

I haven't seen anything on this, but has Tesla given any guidance on EOL for their vehicles? I would think at some point it would become fiscally overwhelming to continue to support a 20 or 40 year old car that is "software on wheels".
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Old 10-22-2020, 10:05 PM   #257
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I haven't seen anything on this, but has Tesla given any guidance on EOL for their vehicles? I would think at some point it would become fiscally overwhelming to continue to support a 20 or 40 year old car that is "software on wheels".
i don't believe samsung or apple have ever technically released a OEL for any of their devices either. but after a few years of updates(after new products are released that require those new updates), their products seem to consistently slow down to the point that the only option is to upgrade.

my essential phone ph1 is likely the longest i've ever had a phone and routinely received updates, but that had everything to do with the company only ever releasing 1 phone model, so it was easy to track how the update impacted the hardware.
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Old 10-22-2020, 10:25 PM   #258
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i don't believe samsung or apple have ever technically released a OEL for any of their devices either. .
No, both do. They let you know when a device is no longer supported, or will not be supported by the next upgrade.

My question around Tesla would be is there a point where the car becomes a brick because Tesla decides its not doing any new updates and therefore the car is rendered inoperable, or does it just stay at that last level forever.

Samsung and Apple don't disable devices, it just no longer gets updates, so eventually apps don't work on it, but a car is relatively self contained. If it doesn't receive any updates it should be able to function fully at its last state.
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Old 10-23-2020, 12:05 AM   #259
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And that last bit is the problem. Tesla gets away with releasing hot garbage for software because "it can just be patched later". It's not a feature, it's duct tape to avoid recalls because of poor QA.
???

Is that the case for all operating systems that get OTA performance, security and features updates like IOS/Android or Windows 10? It seems like you are penalizing Tesla for OTA updates when they could do what every other manufacture does and keep the MMI or systems unchanged for years until a new model is released, and you seem to be acting like that is better. Very odd.

What Tesla releases isn't garbage just like what Audi or Lexus released four years ago for their cruise control or MMI wasn't garbage then just because what they released now is better, and what they release now isn't garbage in light of the fact that in a few more years Audi and Lexus will improve the system. In the same way, improvements in the system doesn't mean it is garbage. We could do the same thing talking about performance or crash safety or whatever. In this moment, this is their best system, and they just choose to enhance it as often as improvements are made.

https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors...oftwareupdates
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Old 10-23-2020, 12:22 AM   #260
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Yea, I agree with both of those, that would be an acceptable compromise for me, even if I had to pay to "catch up" at some later point.

With Autopilot, it probably should be a safety recall, because technically it is. I should then have the option of repair or turning it off as part of the recall, with the appropriate releases, paperwork, etc.

I haven't seen anything on this, but has Tesla given any guidance on EOL for their vehicles? I would think at some point it would become fiscally overwhelming to continue to support a 20 or 40 year old car that is "software on wheels".
Like I said to Spuds, the system is already sound. Improvements are made to enhance its safety or adherence, but it is already safer using Autopilot than not using Autopilot, so a recall might not be necessary, but some type of mandate as described seems fair for both parties.

I don't know about that. Apple, for instance, continues to provide updates for years. My MacBook Pro is a mid-2010 model running a Samsung SSD and 16 gig ram, so it serves me fine. While I am still on High Sierra, I routinely get security updates. Windows supported XP for 12 years before it stopped supporting the platform. Was this because they wanted people to move on to buy more products, or was it because so few people were still using Windows XP, so they were essentially supporting such a small market that it didn't make sense. With that said, if a car manufacture still has many cars on the road after 20 years then maybe they would support them. Like Apple, maybe they don't get all the updates with the latest features that strain the performance of the hardware, but they may provide security patches.

Manufactures can choose to support cars for as long as they want, as long as they do the minimum of parts for 10 years, but they can do more:

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Old 10-23-2020, 07:47 AM   #261
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I don't know about that. Apple, for instance, continues to provide updates for years.
My personal experience with Apple is limited to iPads. I have an original iPad Mini that, while not a brick, is pretty much unusable because Apple stopped providing OS updates for it before the Mini-1 was 4 years old.

Also support Macs as part of my job, since the days of the original Mac. I agree they provide about the same length of support for their computers as other manufacturers. Support for computers though, which are expected to have a short turnover, is different than support for a vehicle that should last a million miles, per Musk.

I was really just curious if anyone knew if Tesla has ever stated "software updates forever" or any other statement about legacy support. For example, do they still provide updates for the Sportster (assuming it received OTA updates)? I did a little searching and couldn't find an "update history" for any of the cars. It's a question I would want answered for any manufacturer providing OTA updates to my vehicle, and one I will eventually ask if/when I buy one.
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Old 10-23-2020, 12:25 PM   #262
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My personal experience with Apple is limited to iPads. I have an original iPad Mini that, while not a brick, is pretty much unusable because Apple stopped providing OS updates for it before the Mini-1 was 4 years old.



Also support Macs as part of my job, since the days of the original Mac. I agree they provide about the same length of support for their computers as other manufacturers. Support for computers though, which are expected to have a short turnover, is different than support for a vehicle that should last a million miles, per Musk.



I was really just curious if anyone knew if Tesla has ever stated "software updates forever" or any other statement about legacy support. For example, do they still provide updates for the Sportster (assuming it received OTA updates)? I did a little searching and couldn't find an "update history" for any of the cars. It's a question I would want answered for any manufacturer providing OTA updates to my vehicle, and one I will eventually ask if/when I buy one.
That's a fair point, I certainly remember plenty of old Windows machines that eventually the updates would make it too demanding for the hardware.. everybody wants to be a subscription provider..

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Old 10-23-2020, 03:47 PM   #263
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My personal experience with Apple is limited to iPads. I have an original iPad Mini that, while not a brick, is pretty much unusable because Apple stopped providing OS updates for it before the Mini-1 was 4 years old.

Also support Macs as part of my job, since the days of the original Mac. I agree they provide about the same length of support for their computers as other manufacturers. Support for computers though, which are expected to have a short turnover, is different than support for a vehicle that should last a million miles, per Musk.

I was really just curious if anyone knew if Tesla has ever stated "software updates forever" or any other statement about legacy support. For example, do they still provide updates for the Sportster (assuming it received OTA updates)? I did a little searching and couldn't find an "update history" for any of the cars. It's a question I would want answered for any manufacturer providing OTA updates to my vehicle, and one I will eventually ask if/when I buy one.
I don’t believe the original Roadster had OTA updates because Tesla didn’t have that system in place. The Roadster was a proof of concept.

It is a good point worth investigating. There are a number of cars outside of warranty or that were salvaged only to be resurrected without Tesla’s support. People are relying on third party software suppliers to jailbreak the cars. In some cases, this is used to unlock features Tesla removed or that people didn’t buy.

I’m sure Tesla has an EOL plan. Currently just 1% of cars on the road are older than 25 years, but 25% are over 15 years. Then again, I don’t know if older cars are driven as much. It may become a thing where cars can receive OTA updates to maintain access to Tesla’s services/network with a service fee for cars beyond 15 years or something. Any other vehicles will lose access and will operate in a more basic configuration.

This could become a problem with many cars down the road, as old technology becomes obsolete. We can kind of see this with the McLaren F1’s wifi, which can only work with old computers or something.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dig...ts-f1-supercar
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Old 10-23-2020, 04:09 PM   #264
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Then again, I don’t know if older cars are driven as much.
In my experience, older cars are driven just as much as newer cars, when you are talking about mass production cars. In many cases more because it's the only car a family may have.
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Old 10-23-2020, 08:15 PM   #265
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In my experience, older cars are driven just as much as newer cars, when you are talking about mass production cars. In many cases more because it's the only car a family may have.
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Old 10-23-2020, 08:36 PM   #266
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Ok, as I said, in my experience. I could argue that 8,000 miles a year is still pretty significant given its an average which means that 50% could be driven 16,000 miles a year and 50% 0 miles. If you own that car you want it to still work.

Again though, the whole thing is just a point of curiosity as to what the intent of Tesla (or any manufacturer) is for long-term vehicles.
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