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12-11-2014, 01:07 PM | #43 | |
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[quote=babydriver;2052530]
Quote:
So to clarify further, tires are generally grouped in vague classes. Yes the best tire in one class may be faster than the worst tire in the class above, but the classes work decently well. They go (roughly) Racing Slicks DOT legal racing slicks DOT legal track tires Extreme Performance tires Maximum Performance tires Ultra High Performance Tires High Performance Tires All the other Summer tires Everything else So the Primacy HP, even though they are classified as GT touring summer tires, they actually get decent lap times, in the UHP range. The Dunlop direzza star spec are in the Extreme Performance category, 2 steps ups. They weren't great EP tires, and why they killed it quickly and developed the star spec II, but they weren't bad. Very few cars come out of the factory with OEM EP tires for a lot of reasons. But when you start saying a car on XXX tires is faster than YYY car, then it's not quite a same comparison because both cars are now running different tires. getting 2 seconds from a tire to a EP tire is actually not that impressive. It's pretty standard, and some cars can see a lot more benefit. PS. a lot of people, especially older people, use UTQG as a vague marker of grip. It is no longer really valid. It used to be roughly okay, but tire tech has tremendously improved in the last couple of decades. The modern push, especially in the performance driven tires, is fueled by autocross and club racing, which usually has tire classes based on UTQG. So that's why there are certain UTQG's that tires come out in. But a modern tire with high UTQG may outperform an older tire with worse UTQG. For example, the Nitto NT05 has a UTQG of 200, but it's currently one of the best EP tires, and faster than tons of tires with UTQG's in the 100's, and faster than older tires with UTQG's under 100. It was specifically designed to hit that 200 goal so that it can run in certain "street tire" car classes. This is also party of the reason that when looking at fastestlap times, it's important to look at cars produced in similar years. Tires keep getting better so lap times keep dropping, and they don't go back and retest old cars on new tires. |
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12-11-2014, 01:21 PM | #44 | |
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[quote=totopo;2052763]
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12-11-2014, 01:22 PM | #45 | |
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Quote:
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12-11-2014, 01:25 PM | #46 |
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I wondered if anyone would mention that! Since the new Stig's identity is not known (yet), we'll just have to speculate on that one.
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12-11-2014, 01:35 PM | #47 |
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Great... was that on a Twin or other lightweight car? I knew they were among the slowest EP tires, but didn't know about the chunking problems.
I had chunking issues on my old Sumis and thought I had gotten past that by switching to NT05's. Haven't see any chunking yet, but have only done one track day on them so far. Yeah I don't know or care enough about the Stig to say haha. I just know people have gone back and forth on the issue.
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12-11-2014, 01:37 PM | #48 | |
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Quote:
This is from experience on AutoX and on heavier cars.
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12-11-2014, 01:42 PM | #49 | |
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123. Subaru Impreza WRX STI 1:28.20 115 '07 300 / 1527 The Stig 124. BMW Z4 sDrive35i 1:28.20 115 '09 306 / 1580 The Stig 126. Mitsubishi Lancer Evo X FQ300 SST 1:28.22 115 '08 291 / 1590 The Stig 127. Opel Astra OPC 2012 1:28.30 115 '12 280 / 0 The Stig 130. VW Golf GTI (MkVII) 1:28.60 115 '13 230 / 1351 The Stig 136. Ford Focus RS 1:29.30 114 '09 305 / 1467 The Stig 138. Ford Focus ST 1:29.60 113 '12 250 / 1432 The Stig 139. VW Golf Mk7 GTi (220 hp-version) 1:29.60 113 '13 220 / 1351 The Stig 145. Renault Megane Sport F1-Team R26 1:30.60 112 '07 231 / 1375 The Stig 146. Ford Focus RS500 1:30.80 d 112 '10 350 / 1450 The Stig 152. Vauxhall VXR8 1:31.30 111 '07 417 / 1812 The Stig 153. Toyota GT-86 1:31.30 111 '12 200 / 1180 Stig 163. Renault Clio RS 200 EDC 1:32.00 110 '12 200 / 0 The Stig 169. VW Golf Mk V GTI Edition 30 1:32.60 110 '07 230 / 1332 The Stig 171. Ford Fiesta ST 1:32.70 110 '13 180 / 1248 The Stig 179. Peugeot 208 GTI 1:33.20 109 '12 200 / 1160 The Stig Which is pretty consistent with what is posted previously. PS, stop trying to compare modern lap times to cars in the early 2000's. It reminds me of that guy that was trying to compare the frs times to a 1970's 911 turbo lap time and say the frs is faster than a 911 turbo. |
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12-11-2014, 02:17 PM | #50 |
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Bet I can kick his ass!
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12-11-2014, 02:17 PM | #51 |
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totopo, you are guilty of a couple of logical fallacies here:
1. Cherry picking your data -- leads to the conclusion that you wanted 2. Ad hominum attack -- if you don't like the data, attack the source. Which is fine if you then do not use the same data (cherry picked) to make your own point. I asked you if you have a better source of lap times. Do you?
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12-11-2014, 03:51 PM | #52 | |
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If you look at the all the times on fastestlaps, then certain trends appear. The best ones to look at are ones with smiliar drivers, such as Autozeiting, Hockenheim short, vairano handling course, the randy pobst times for the Cali tracks, top gear track, tsukuba, some of the nordschliefe times (the industry sponsored or pro driver ones). When you start to do that, there are basically no suprises. Most of the cars line up pretty similarly across all the tracks. Sure some cars switch places on one track compared to the other. There is variation from different conditions, some tracks favor higher hp, some tracks favor lighter, etc. etc. But when you look at all of those tracks together, them most of the cars end up in the same place. So if you look at the top gear times, and go "OH WOW THE FR-S IS FASTER THAN AN Z4, M3, M5, S2000, AND 350Z!!!!!" Guess what, a ford focus ST is faster than all those times too. And so is the VW golf GTI mk7. Now in your mind, is a ford focus ST faster than an M3? If you think the data is not consistent, you have to think why. I wouldn't quite say I am "cherry picking" data to prove a point, I am trying to synthesize all the data to make sense of things and have consistency. So let's look at the Z4 by comparison on all the tracks: Autozeitung test track 77. BMW Z4 sDrive 35is 1:42.30 '10 340 / 1605 280. Toyota GT-86 1:49.90 '12 200 / 1180 Hockenheim Short 273. BMW Z4 sDrive 35is 1:16.10 123 '10 340 / 1605 468. Toyota GT-86 1:19.40 118 '12 200 / 1180 Vairano Handling Course 109. BMW Z4 sDrive35i 1:23.91 '09 306 / 1580 148. Toyota GT-86 1:26.22 '12 200 / 1180 Top Gear Track 124. BMW Z4 sDrive35i 1:28.20 115 '09 306 / 1580 The Stig 153. Toyota GT-86 1:31.30 111 '12 200 / 1180 Stig no suprises. |
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12-11-2014, 05:52 PM | #53 |
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I'm not sure there is one. I would look to the motor trend lightning laps.
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12-11-2014, 07:22 PM | #54 |
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I'm already tired of the little man syndrome I'm seeing in some BRZ/FRS owners. It's bad enough when people outside the community erroneously bag on the car using false paradigms, to see owners internalize it and get defensive is sad.
It's a $30,000 car with 200HP. It's never going to smoke a Mustang down a drag strip. It's never going to show an Elise its as on a track and it's never going to carry as much as Forester and if you want real carbon fiber interior, buy a Ferrari. Quit making excuses and looking for any data points that skew reality towards whatever erroneous assumption you are trying to make. No excuses are required because it's an amazing, nimble, speedY sportY car at an attainable price point with the ability to adapt and evolve to individual driver desires with basic bolt ons and upgrades readily available on the rapidly expanding aftermarket. If you are mad and embarrassed because it won't do what it was'nt built to do (see above) then that is YOUR fault, not the car's. If you lay awake at night frustrated that the car doesn't have 500hp and something twice the price can go faster than it in a straight line or around the track I suggest two possible courses of action you one dimensional, pathetic, striving, confused little person. 1. Realize what the car is, that your expectations are unreasonable given the facts and begin to enjoy the fun little car you bought. 2. Realize that you are suffering from debilitating and terminal low self esteem and that without the ability to mature and grow you must insulate yourself from all possibility of being stripped of your chosen automotive shell and thus required to exhibit a personality of your own, effect humility and be able to appreciate your own personal growth irrespective of whatever car you own. Drive your FRS or BRZ to your Nissan dealer and trade it in on this. See how the ladies are already hot and bothered and you aren't even in there? That means the car doesn't need you to get YOU laid either and if you already need it for all the other areas where you can't perform I guarantee you you suck at attracting women too so just get past the denial, buy a car that can easily hide what a loser you are and be happy. Happy as a hippo. Even better, your old car will have a second chance as it sits on the used car lot at that Nissan dealer that sold you the GT-R, the Chevrolet dealer that sold you the Corvette, the Ford dealer that sold you the Mustang or whatever car you chose as a personality prosthetic. Perhaps the very next day some person who gets what these little cars are and loves them on the merits will be able to buy it and love where you just denied you hated it and made excuses for the mistake YOU made when you bought it. Sell to Good Home. "why did the last guy get rid of them?" "they wouldn't fetch a ball." |
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12-11-2014, 07:28 PM | #55 |
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Like I told my last wife, I says, "Honey, I never drive faster than I can see. Besides that, it's all in the reflexes."
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12-11-2014, 07:30 PM | #56 |
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Must I punish you again?
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