follow ft86club on our blog, twitter or facebook.
FT86CLUB
Ft86Club
Speed By Design
Register Garage Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   Toyota GR86, 86, FR-S and Subaru BRZ Forum - FT86CLUB > Technical Topics > Software Tuning

Software Tuning Discuss all software tuning topics.


User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 05-19-2020, 01:12 PM   #29
solidONE
Senior Member
 
solidONE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Drives: FR-S Whiteout
Location: California
Posts: 2,856
Thanks: 1,802
Thanked 788 Times in 610 Posts
Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkSunrise View Post
It's interesting that with the same tuner (Zach) on the same dyno (Racer's Line) and both running E85:

- the JDL 4-1 EL header made 209 whp
- the JDL 4-2-1 EL header made 195 whp

The shape of the torque curves are pretty similar, but the 4-1 EL header seems to hold power higher in the RPM range.
I wonder why the P-Tuning 4-1 doesnt do so well in the mid-range torque dip area. They even considered the firing order designing the pipes. It's the most well made header for this car on the market, I think, in terms of craftsmanship. Performance seems to fall a little short.
__________________
Intent > Content

cowardice is the mother of cruelty.
solidONE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2020, 01:25 PM   #30
PandaBRZ
Senior Member
 
PandaBRZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Drives: SWP BRZ
Location: Castro Valley, CA
Posts: 417
Thanks: 492
Thanked 404 Times in 173 Posts
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by solidONE View Post
50 ft lbs of torque gained at 3800.. Torque dip making exhaust and ECM recalibration vendors money since 2012.

Such a worthwhile mod.

Absolutely. The car's behavior has changed massively and the 4-1 header really rewards winding the motor to redline. Some may want more torque down low but I love the high-revving nature of the FA20 so the 4-1 EL is perfect for my driving style.
__________________

Read my writing about the BRZ on my website.
PandaBRZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2020, 04:08 PM   #31
solidONE
Senior Member
 
solidONE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Drives: FR-S Whiteout
Location: California
Posts: 2,856
Thanks: 1,802
Thanked 788 Times in 610 Posts
Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by PandaBRZ View Post
Absolutely. The car's behavior has changed massively and the 4-1 header really rewards winding the motor to redline. Some may want more torque down low but I love the high-revving nature of the FA20 so the 4-1 EL is perfect for my driving style.
nearly 160 ft lbs of torque from 3600rpm up is a lot of torque, relative to stock. Relative to most aftermarket setups, for that matter.

It's a beautiful torque curve. A very peppy one.
__________________
Intent > Content

cowardice is the mother of cruelty.
solidONE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2020, 06:22 PM   #32
airrick
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Drives: TRD R.S. 1.0 FRS
Location: California
Posts: 181
Thanks: 87
Thanked 49 Times in 35 Posts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
w

Last edited by airrick; 07-09-2021 at 08:37 PM.
airrick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2020, 07:20 PM   #33
86TOYO2k17
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Drives: 2017 toyota 86
Location: PNW
Posts: 1,891
Thanks: 223
Thanked 1,000 Times in 668 Posts
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by airrick View Post
Generally 4-1 El headers are for power at the top and4-2-1 El headers are more for the mid range. 4-1 headers are for people that are actually rev their car to redline, which i dont do, alot. And i really wanted that torque dip to go away. And it has =) most people want to look at the numbers only but best comparison is to drive them.

I think his E85 % content was higher when he tuned his car. mine was at only e55. I suspect his ethanol content was higher than mine.
Unless you have a 4-2-1 long tube header. Best of both worlds.
86TOYO2k17 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2020, 08:02 PM   #34
tomm.brz
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Drives: brz 2017 hksv2
Location: italy
Posts: 1,592
Thanks: 379
Thanked 609 Times in 495 Posts
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
el 4-1 still give more peak power and in generally they make the car come alive brutally after you pass 5.5k rpm
tomm.brz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2020, 08:20 PM   #35
churchx
Senior Member
 
churchx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Drives: 2014 GT86
Location: Latvia, Riga
Posts: 4,156
Thanks: 624
Thanked 1,948 Times in 1,345 Posts
Mentioned: 48 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
I'm still under impression that even on track midrange & total area under curve is more important for actual goal, to accelerate/drive faster, then higher peak number. Not just peak hp for very very narrow rpm range powerband you spend second in before upshifting. Hence good longtube 4-2-1 headers like that of Ace/JDL/Nameless seem preferable choice to 4-1 .. that actually also can be as effective theoretically, if they had similar long runners to optimize scavenging at mid-rpms, but in reality are not, due packaging reasons. It was hard to get long runners in 4-2-1 design like for Ace/Nameless .. now imagine to try to get 4 tubes as long as in those 4-2-1 .. pack not just 2 but 4 tubes before engine or where overpipe goes. Hence due limited clearance 4-1 is destined to be with short tubes, which means - optimized for very highest rpm range only, and imho that is relatively rare/specific usage case (eg. built NA engine with fixed oiling limitations and running with much higher redline) where it might be beneficial over midrange or overall gains across. Even on track. Even though it's not fault of 4-1 design itself, but simply that there is no space for long enough tubes of doubled count.
Of course in hypothetical ideal world we would have as much space under bonnet as more then half a century ago to alleviate clearance/design limitations and variable adjustable (or multipath selectable) intake and exhaust tube lengths for always to be at most optimal length (IIRC like it was done in some supercars). But otherwise it's not 4-2-1 vs 4-1, but "longtube 4-2-1" vs "short tube 4-1".

Last edited by churchx; 05-19-2020 at 08:31 PM.
churchx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2020, 08:43 PM   #36
86TOYO2k17
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Drives: 2017 toyota 86
Location: PNW
Posts: 1,891
Thanks: 223
Thanked 1,000 Times in 668 Posts
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
JDL 4-2-1 isn’t a long tube header.

Nameless still has short 4-2 runners, it has long 2-1 runners before the merge for great mid range. But needs longer 4-2 runners for top end.

ACE has long 4-2 runners, the 4-2 runner length before the merge is as long or longer than the 4-1 EL runners. Allowing for good top end and then has the scavenging and efficiency of the 2-1 step down for mid range giving you best of both worlds. The later can be adjusted by the OP design 150/250/350 allowing more mid range or more top end by adjusting those lengths. But even the 350 has good top end because of the 4-2 length and the 150 has decent mid range because of the 4-2-1 design. In my personal opinion the ace 250 is the perfect no compromise header.
86TOYO2k17 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2020, 08:43 PM   #37
PulsarBeeerz
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Drives: BRZ
Location: Dayton, OH
Posts: 506
Thanks: 405
Thanked 345 Times in 204 Posts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by solidONE View Post
50 ft lbs of torque gained at 3800.. Torque dip making exhaust and ECM recalibration vendors money since 2012.

Such a worthwhile mod.
Believe it or not some people still think its all marketing the torque dip isnt a thing.
PulsarBeeerz is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to PulsarBeeerz For This Useful Post:
CSG Mike (05-20-2020)
Old 05-19-2020, 11:33 PM   #38
PulsarBeeerz
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Drives: BRZ
Location: Dayton, OH
Posts: 506
Thanks: 405
Thanked 345 Times in 204 Posts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkSunrise View Post
It's interesting that with the same tuner (Zach) on the same dyno (Racer's Line) and both running E85:

- the JDL 4-1 EL header made 209 whp
- the JDL 4-2-1 EL header made 195 whp

The shape of the torque curves are pretty similar, but the 4-1 EL header seems to hold power higher in the RPM range.

Same dyno but different correction factors and loads on all printouts. If dynos aren't under the same test setup you can't compare a thing..

E85 JDL UEL


PulsarBeeerz is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to PulsarBeeerz For This Useful Post:
airrick (05-20-2020), CSG Mike (05-20-2020)
Old 05-20-2020, 09:52 AM   #39
DarkSunrise
Senior Member
 
DarkSunrise's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Drives: 13 FR-S
Location: USA
Posts: 5,490
Thanks: 1,663
Thanked 3,841 Times in 2,046 Posts
Mentioned: 45 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by solidONE View Post
I wonder why the P-Tuning 4-1 doesnt do so well in the mid-range torque dip area. They even considered the firing order designing the pipes. It's the most well made header for this car on the market, I think, in terms of craftsmanship. Performance seems to fall a little short.
Hmm... I wouldn't say the performance falls short, just heavily skewed towards the top-end where it is still arguably the best performing header on the market. PTuning stated one of their design goals was to minimize sweep in front of the engine to keep engine bay temps down, so they were probably limited on space for runner length (and possibly midrange power).

Quote:
Originally Posted by airrick View Post
Generally 4-1 El headers are for power at the top and4-2-1 El headers are more for the mid range. 4-1 headers are for people that are actually rev their car to redline, which i dont do, alot. And i really wanted that torque dip to go away. And it has =) most people want to look at the numbers only but best comparison is to drive them.

I think his E85 % content was higher when he tuned his car. mine was at only e55. I suspect his ethanol content was higher than mine.
Yeah it sounds like you picked the right header for your driving style. Glad you're happy with it setup - it looks like it'd be a lot of fun in everyday driving.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PulsarBeeerz View Post
Same dyno but different correction factors and loads on all printouts. If dynos aren't under the same test setup you can't compare a thing..

E85 JDL UEL
I'm not a dyno expert, but OP's dyno run looked like it was using a standard 1.00 correction factor. I didn't see a correction factor listed on the @PandaBRZ dyno chart. Do you have some reason to believe it was using a large CF?
__________________
Build Page
"I love this car. I think we wimped out when we didn't name it Best Driver's Car." -Randy Pobst on the BRZ

Last edited by DarkSunrise; 05-20-2020 at 10:03 AM.
DarkSunrise is online now   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to DarkSunrise For This Useful Post:
CSG Mike (05-20-2020), solidONE (05-20-2020)
Old 05-27-2020, 04:03 PM   #40
PulsarBeeerz
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Drives: BRZ
Location: Dayton, OH
Posts: 506
Thanks: 405
Thanked 345 Times in 204 Posts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkSunrise View Post
I'm not a dyno expert, but OP's dyno run looked like it was using a standard 1.00 correction factor. I didn't see a correction factor listed on the @PandaBRZ dyno chart. Do you have some reason to believe it was using a large CF?
Not larger just, different. The same dyno with SAE vs STD correction factor will give a different output. Also having a load off or on effects it as well.
PulsarBeeerz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-28-2020, 05:00 AM   #41
solidONE
Senior Member
 
solidONE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Drives: FR-S Whiteout
Location: California
Posts: 2,856
Thanks: 1,802
Thanked 788 Times in 610 Posts
Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by airrick View Post
Generally 4-1 El headers are for power at the top and4-2-1 El headers are more for the mid range. 4-1 headers are for people that are actually rev their car to redline, which i dont do, alot. And i really wanted that torque dip to go away. And it has =) most people want to look at the numbers only but best comparison is to drive them.

I think his E85 % content was higher when he tuned his car. mine was at only e55. I suspect his ethanol content was higher than mine.
Another thing about mid range vs top end. Mid range torque cost less fuel than top end power. Maybe? How would we test this? Hmm...
__________________
Intent > Content

cowardice is the mother of cruelty.
solidONE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-28-2020, 05:45 AM   #42
churchx
Senior Member
 
churchx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Drives: 2014 GT86
Location: Latvia, Riga
Posts: 4,156
Thanks: 624
Thanked 1,948 Times in 1,345 Posts
Mentioned: 48 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
solidONE: imho fuel economy is not worth splitting hairs about. Technically similar energy should be spent to get upto speed, be it done slower with granny shifting (but for longer period), or faster (but for shorter period and then driving longer with more efficient higher gear). Of course less pumping and drivetrain frictional losses at higher gears at lesser engine rpms may save a bit .. but also will reduce acceleration rate/wheel torque due gearing. Simpler to just not think of fuel economy and have fun driving instead of sedate ecomiling. People pay for comfort, why not pay slight premium for fun. Same reason why i fill with 98 petrol even while manual states that cheaper 95 is ok, and why often from traffic lights shift 1-2-5 or 1-2-6 .
churchx is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Dyno Results - OFT Stage 2 UEL + Openflash Header + Full Exhaust pinski Software Tuning 8 11-21-2016 11:07 AM
My Nameless header dyno results (results to follow) Simply_the_best Engine, Exhaust, Transmission 39 06-28-2016 04:09 PM
Ace Header 4-2-1 CS400 Custom BRZEdit Tune Dyno Results JDM-dono Engine, Exhaust, Transmission 24 05-05-2016 04:54 PM
Australian Dyno Dyno Results Shiv@Openflash Software Tuning 11 07-22-2015 04:57 AM
Dyno Compilation - dyno testing results and recommendations Illusive Engine, Exhaust, Transmission 82 02-08-2013 07:00 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:43 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging v3.3.0 (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2021 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

Garage vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.