Why did I wait so long to try the pedal dance

[GrandSport]

Originally Posted by ZDan

Worth noting that for '17+ there is no E-diff with the long-hold on the TCS-Off button...
FWIW I only tried pedal dance a few times on my '17 PP, and back-to-back vs. "long-hold" at the track (no autoX) I really couldn't tell much if any difference, and for sure my lap times were not impacted either way. So I just stuck with "long-hold" as it's a whole lot easier and can be done on track during lapping if you forget before going out...

There is a difference imo. As you get closer and closer to limits it becomes more and more intrusive. Also, if you try to rotate on the brakes or gas or anything more than “static” driving it becomes a problem. But that’s pretty much any system save maybe some really expensive race stuff I’m not fast enough or rich enough to have tried lol. I’ve yet to drive an OEM system that I’d rather have on than off at the track.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by GrandSport

There is a difference imo. As you get closer and closer to limits it becomes more and more intrusive. Also, if you try to rotate on the brakes or gas or anything more than “static” driving it becomes a problem. But that’s pretty much any system save maybe some really expensive race stuff I’m not fast enough or rich enough to have tried lol. I’ve yet to drive an OEM system that I’d rather have on than off at the track.

There are differences between what the '13-'16 and '17-'20 do in "track mode" and also with the "long-hold". '17-'20 is a lot less intrusive and I think only '17+ turns off E-diff with the long-hold. In my experience with the '17, pretty much no difference between pedal dance and "long-hold", at and beyond limits on and off the brakes and gas all the time. Your experience in a '14 is no doubt different.

[RedReplicant]

Fortunately, a 2017+ module bolts right on to <=2016 cars, just need to match transmission. No bleeding involved, just swap the module on the ABS block (2013 will need two wires repinned).

[86league]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

I don’t believe you can get individual brake pressure on this car without creating a new sensor system. What you want to log is individual wheel speed and compare the 4 to see if a wheel, or multiple wheels are locking which you’d see as them slowing down significantly.

But how does wheel speed sensor data tell you if the ABS is single or multi-channel? I'm not understanding something apparently.

If a wheel speed drops and then recovers - the ABS could reducing pressure to just that wheel, or it can reduce pressure to all 4 wheels until the locked wheel recovers. Right?

I run pedal dance and will occasionally get a small lock from the unloaded inner wheel if I trail brake too aggressively. Data shows a little downward spike in that wheel speed.

Is the ABS action to recover to just the inside front or to all 4? It's a very short duration.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by 86league

But how does wheel speed sensor data tell you if the ABS is single or multi-channel? I'm not understanding something apparently.

If a wheel speed drops and then recovers - the ABS could reducing pressure to just that wheel, or it can reduce pressure to all 4 wheels until the locked wheel recovers. Right?

I run pedal dance and will occasionally get a small lock from the unloaded inner wheel if I trail brake too aggressively. Data shows a little downward spike in that wheel speed.

Is the ABS action to recover to just the inside front or to all 4? It's a very short duration.

You would see the other three wheel speeds going in a step shape with the pulses if abs was acting single channel across the whole car instead of smooth deceleration, it would be releasing pressure and your other three wheels would be speeding up - or rather slowing less quickly - with each pulse as it tries to recover the locking wheel.

[RedReplicant]

I'm guessing you need to be logging faster than I am (10hz) to see that... This isn't the best example - just something I grabbed from the first AIM log I had on the laptop, but you can see ABS is intervening on separate wheels.

Not that I really trust the Solo 2 onboard GPS accel, but it is all I've got at the moment to give some kind of idea of what is going. You can see the decel G bleed off or flatten out after ABS intervention, to be fair.

Channels separated



Channels overlaid to better illustrate



Don't make fun of my driving

[strat61caster]

So the abs is engaging just after the 1760 mark?

[RedReplicant]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

So the abs is engaging just after the 1760 mark?

I figured it was modulating at 1520 and 1620, basically ignore everything after that. Maybe I'm wrong, I dunno. I'm not good at the data interpretation stuff.

I'll gather some data in the next month or so without pedal dance and try to A-B them.

[jcaserta]

Is that braking in a straight line? If you're turning, feel like we need steering angle to make sense of it

[autoracer86]

Originally Posted by RedReplicant

I figured it was modulating at 1520 and 1620, basically ignore everything after that. Maybe I'm wrong, I dunno. I'm not good at the data interpretation stuff.

I'll gather some data in the next month or so without pedal dance and try to A-B them.

is it possible you're just modulating the brake yourself ? I have a fair bit of data when the TC is off with the 5 second hold. Never really noticed anything odd for wheel speed and brake pressure. Happy to share anything that might be helpful

[GrandSport]

Can someone explain to me, like I'm 5, how to data log these channels with an AIM Solo2DL (and how to actually get it to work with a smartycam 2.1?)

[jflogerzi]

Originally Posted by RACECAR go brrr!

Just jumping into the fray to make two points about pedal dance (and my experience in my 2015 BRZ):

1. While I haven't won at SOLO Nationals (which I blame partially on the fact that my car is not in any way set up to be properly competitive in STX), I do have several season jackets with Chicago Region, so I'm not a complete idiot behind the wheel. I've found absolutely no need to use the Pedal Dance at autocross.

2. My personal theory as to why so many people swear by the Pedal Dance (including a lot of people in the Toyobaru Facebook groups) is that - from what I've gathered over many years driving the car - if the E-DIFF engages, that flashes the stability light on the cluster. And while the E-DIFF is merely attempting to ensure your Torsen diff can do its job properly, and therefore is - if anything - HELPING you do your shenanigans, I think a LOT of people see that blinking light on the dash and get all pissed off thinking the car is stepping in and ruining their day. That's my theory based mainly on the fact that when I'm ice racing, that light will be endlessly flashing despite the fact that the car isn't cutting power, or trying to reel me in. I'll be properly sideways at 50 MPH on a frozen lake, and the light is just blinking away, and the only logical explanation I have is that given the low traction surface, the Torsen isn't able to do LSD things, and so that blinking light is just the car saying, "Hey, I'm adding a little bit of resistance to the rear end so your diff stays locked up."

And, like, I'm the guy who sells the switch panels that people most-often use in conjunction with the TracBox to easily enable the Pedal Dance, so it's not like it isn't in my best interest to go around shouting "YOU NEED PEDAL DANCE" to everyone... but I've spent SO much time defending the "3-second-hold" TCS OFF mode that the car came with from the factory it's ridiculous. That mode was fine when the car first came out, and everyone applauded how easy they had made it to "fully defeat" the driver aids. Then one day someone discovered the Pedal Dance and suddenly the other mode was "trash" and "useless" and "doesn't let you do anything." I realize there are some specific instances on track where apparently Pedal Dance does have benefits, but I'm tired of every person just trying to do some donuts in a parking lot, or trying to get the ass a bit loose on a back road, insisting that the Pedal Dance is the "ONLY WAY" to prevent the car from intervening. That's completely untrue for the vast majority of folks.

while valid arguments the car is easier to drive at the limit for me with pedal dance vs the long hold. my 2013 still tries to step in at the wrong times. so for me it's the un predictable nature of the system that I don't like. granted it's been a while since I have tried the long press. I have a progressed as a driver so one of these days I should try and do a back to back comparison between the 2 modes.

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk

[RedReplicant]

Originally Posted by jcaserta

Is that braking in a straight line? If you're turning, feel like we need steering angle to make sense of it

The two dips I called out were in a straight line. Eh, I will A-B them next event.

Originally Posted by GrandSport

Can someone explain to me, like I'm 5, how to data log these channels with an AIM Solo2DL (and how to actually get it to work with a smartycam 2.1?)

I'm running Haltech, rather than a stock BRZ ECU since kswap, but connect your Solo 2 DL to OBD or CAN directly.

Open up RaceStudio 3, click gear icon in top left, click New, select Solo 2 DL, click ECU Stream tab, choose Toyota => GT86

Click the 10hz on the wheel speeds and set them to 20hz

Go to the Display tab and build the views you want to page through on the Solo

Click the Smartycam Stream and set your channels. For speed you're going to want to change it to ECU SpeedAverage

Click Save, turn your Solo2DL on, connect to its WiFi network from your computer, then click Transmit on your new Solo 2 DL config.

SmartyCam 2 is stupid limited on display stuff so you can't really get your individual wheel speeds to display live... I get oil pressure on my overlaid live data because I am using the Haltech CAN config instead of the BRZ chassis CAN.

If you need more of a walk through I can arrange it.

[GrandSport]

Originally Posted by RedReplicant

The two dips I called out were in a straight line. Eh, I will A-B them next event.



I'm running Haltech, rather than a stock BRZ ECU since kswap, but connect your Solo 2 DL to OBD or CAN directly.

Open up RaceStudio 3, click gear icon in top left, click New, select Solo 2 DL, click ECU Stream tab, choose Toyota => GT86

Click the 10hz on the wheel speeds and set them to 20hz

Go to the Display tab and build the views you want to page through on the Solo

Click the Smartycam Stream and set your channels. For speed you're going to want to change it to ECU SpeedAverage

Click Save, turn your Solo2DL on, connect to its WiFi network from your computer, then click Transmit on your new Solo 2 DL config.

SmartyCam 2 is stupid limited on display stuff so you can't really get your individual wheel speeds to display live... I get oil pressure on my overlaid live data because I am using the Haltech CAN config instead of the BRZ chassis CAN.

If you need more of a walk through I can arrange it.

Holy shit, thank you!