Got a track related question? I'll try to answer.

[kavanagh]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

I remember the first time I went into T2 at WSIR flat in my s2k, and then sawed the whole way through the turn, because that's what Charles Ng had done.

Then other S2k drivers looked at me like I was insane when I was trying to explain that to them... little did I know how much risk I was actually taking at the time.

Reminds me of my first experience with 160+ mph sweepers on the bike and 120+ turns. I met a group of 20-25 sport bike riders at a gas station one morning and asked if I could tag along with them. They agreed and went through the usual 'ride your own ride, be safe...' speech with everyone before we set off. There was a ride leader and a sweep rider to make sure no one got left behind.

This was my first time in a group ride and also first time taking the bike to the twisties, and I just did what the guy in front of me did until he slowed down, and then I would pass and go to the next rider to follow.

Long story short, at the first stop to regroup, I was with the first 5 or 6 people behind the leader. He said he wanted to walk back amongst the group to make sure the new guy was ok. I spoke up telling him I was right there. He asked how many times I'd ridden that mountain road. I told him this was the first time I'd been in any twisties on the bike. He then told me three quarters of their group were AMA racers or former racers (himself included) and he had been setting an aggressive pace to keep them entertained.

I thanked him very much, turned around, and rode home.


Sent from a secret volcano base using trained sharks

[solidONE]

Originally Posted by kavanagh

Reminds me of my first experience with 160+ mph sweepers on the bike and 120+ turns. I met a group of 20-25 sport bike riders at a gas station one morning and asked if I could tag along with them. They agreed and went through the usual 'ride your own ride, be safe...' speech with everyone before we set off. There was a ride leader and a sweep rider to make sure no one got left behind.

This was my first time in a group ride and also first time taking the bike to the twisties, and I just did what the guy in front of me did until he slowed down, and then I would pass and go to the next rider to follow.

Long story short, at the first stop to regroup, I was with the first 5 or 6 people behind the leader. He said he wanted to walk back amongst the group to make sure the new guy was ok. I spoke up telling him I was right there. He asked how many times I'd ridden that mountain road. I told him this was the first time I'd been in any twisties on the bike. He then told me three quarters of their group were AMA racers or former racers (himself included) and he had been setting an aggressive pace to keep them entertained.

I thanked him very much, turned around, and rode home.


Sent from a secret volcano base using trained sharks

Wow! your first time to the canyons and you were hitting 160MPH sweepers, keeping up with AMA pros? That's very very impressive. I don't think I've hit 160 going in a straight line on my bike.

[tnle]

Sorry, not a track related question but...

- Mike do you have a picture of the AP endurance kit behind the TC105N?
- Does Pmu make HC+ Pads for the APs? (Couldn't find a product code for it)

Thanks

[Deep Six]

Originally Posted by orthojoe

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that Patrick Long has better things to do than post on a BRZ/FRS forum.

Originally Posted by solidONE

Wow! your first time to the canyons and you were hitting 160MPH sweepers, keeping up with AMA pros? That's very very impressive. I don't think I've hit 160 going in a straight line on my bike.

I was under the impression that 2 wheel adhesion is significantly less than 4 wheel? No first hand experience since my bike is a HD Road Glide but the track videos I have watched show liter bikes running similar lap times as well prepped sports cars but slower in the corners while stupid fast on the straights?

[bimmer635csi]

Originally Posted by Deep Six

I was under the impression that 2 wheel adhesion is significantly less than 4 wheel?

If the 2-wheeled vehicle weighed the same as the 4-wheeled vehicle, that would be a fair statement. Which is why a car is faster when the tires stay on the ground through a turn.

[Pat]

I thought for sure I would end up with the AP Sprint kit next year, but after this weekend, I'm not sure I'll need it. Today I measured rotor temps at 830 degrees Fahrenheit. The DTC-60 pads I'm using are supposed to cover the range from 450 to 1,600 degrees. Wear seems to be reasonable and I'm not experiencing any fade or fluid boil. For those of you going with a BBK, what temps were you getting the OEM brakes up to?

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Pat

I thought for sure I would end up with the AP Sprint kit next year, but after this weekend, I'm not sure I'll need it. Today I measured rotor temps at 830 degrees Fahrenheit. The DTC-60 pads I'm using are supposed to cover the range from 450 to 1,600 degrees. Wear seems to be reasonable and I'm not experiencing any fade or fluid boil. For those of you going with a BBK, what temps were you getting the OEM brakes up to?

830F is what your rotor temps stabilized at. When you're braking, you're putting a huge heat impulse into the surfaces of your pads and rotors, which then dissipates via conduction into the pad/caliper/fluid, and the rest of the rotor.

This is why you see race cars get glowing brakes when they're stopping, and then the glowing disappears quickly; the heat is being sunk into the rest of the setup. The brakes are not really cooling from 1500F+ to under 800F that quickly.

If your equilibrium temps are that high, you need a BBK. You don't want your caliper getting over 250 or so, or you start rapidly fatiguing the metalurgy, and will eventually suffer a catastrophic failure.

[Pat]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

830F is what your rotor temps stabilized at. When you're braking, you're putting a huge heat impulse into the surfaces of your pads and rotors, which then dissipates via conduction into the pad/caliper/fluid, and the rest of the rotor.

This is why you see race cars get glowing brakes when they're stopping, and then the glowing disappears quickly; the heat is being sunk into the rest of the setup. The brakes are not really cooling from 1500F+ to under 800F that quickly.

If your equilibrium temps are that high, you need a BBK. You don't want your caliper getting over 250 or so, or you start rapidly fatiguing the metalurgy, and will eventually suffer a catastrophic failure.

Mike, I love reading your posts. We've never met, but as far as I can tell, you're experienced with these cars.
I can't get rid of this nagging feeling, though. I have a couple friends that I was at the track with, both of which said with great confidence that I don't need a BBK. One rode with me and knows me very well. He was a pro racer at one point and I trust his judgement. The other is a national champion autocrosser and maybe fender to fender national champ as well. He owns a BRZ and has built several. He also said with confidence there's no need for a BBK. Does this surprise you?
I feel like this has been discussed ad nauseam, but can't stop thinking about it.
I'd love to hear what others have to say on this.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Pat

Mike, I love reading your posts. We've never met, but as far as I can tell, you're experienced with these cars.
I can't get rid of this nagging feeling, though. I have a couple friends that I was at the track with, both of which said with great confidence that I don't need a BBK. One rode with me and knows me very well. He was a pro racer at one point and I trust his judgement. The other is a national champion autocrosser and maybe fender to fender national champ as well. He owns a BRZ and has built several. He also said with confidence there's no need for a BBK. Does this surprise you?
I feel like this has been discussed ad nauseam, but can't stop thinking about it.
I'd love to hear what others have to say on this.

Do you absolutely need a BBK to do one or two laps? No. Big ducting and aggressive pads will probably buy you enough overhead, as long as you stay NA, to do more laps. Will getting a BBK reduce your running cost? Absolutely.

The metal fatigue will eventually cause your caliper to fail. The metal fatigue will cause your stock rotors to crack. Rotors cracking (instead of getting heavily webbed with small fractures that don't propagate) is a sign that the heat cycles are too large, which means the temps are probably getting too high to begin with.

If you want to do some of your own research, try using temperature paint on your rotors, and temp strips on your calipers. Ours went off the charts under our testing. It was so severe that we had a BBK on the 2013 BRZ before we had coilovers on. This is partially dependent on your own level of development in your driving.

The cost of not having a BBK: I crack as many as 3 rotors per day when I track my S2000. The problem is, it's REALLY difficult to find wheels that clear a BBK on a S2000 without some serious work. My pads last me 4 days, at best.

[jvincent]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

The cost of not having a BBK: I crack as many as 3 rotors per day when I track my S2000.

Ouch!

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by jvincent

Ouch!

Oh, I should add, I'm on street tires. No R-comps or slicks or anything super sticky.

[gramicci101]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

The cost of not having a BBK: I crack as many as 3 rotors per day when I track my S2000.

Is this at all dependent on the type of rotor? Say, would a DBA 5000 crack just as quickly as an OEM blank?

I really hope cracking != catastrophic failure.

[ATL BRZ]

Originally Posted by Pat

I thought for sure I would end up with the AP Sprint kit next year, but after this weekend, I'm not sure I'll need it. Today I measured rotor temps at 830 degrees Fahrenheit. The DTC-60 pads I'm using are supposed to cover the range from 450 to 1,600 degrees. Wear seems to be reasonable and I'm not experiencing any fade or fluid boil. For those of you going with a BBK, what temps were you getting the OEM brakes up to?

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

830F is what your rotor temps stabilized at. When you're braking, you're putting a huge heat impulse into the surfaces of your pads and rotors, which then dissipates via conduction into the pad/caliper/fluid, and the rest of the rotor.

This is why you see race cars get glowing brakes when they're stopping, and then the glowing disappears quickly; the heat is being sunk into the rest of the setup. The brakes are not really cooling from 1500F+ to under 800F that quickly.

If your equilibrium temps are that high, you need a BBK. You don't want your caliper getting over 250 or so, or you start rapidly fatiguing the metalurgy, and will eventually suffer a catastrophic failure.

I think @Pat would be fine adding a Touge Factory brake cooling kit to his car while n/a. Both myself and @smbstyle have never had OEM or Centric blank rotors crack while running the TF cooling kit after several track days. We both run track pads and block the excessive heat from radiating into the calipers by using titanium shims behind the pads. Our dust boots are still in very good condition after many track days pounding on the brakes as evidence the calipers are not over heating from dissipation from the rotors.

I'm not saying you're wrong about anything you've said, but I don't see the risk of failure being as great as you make it seem given you've provisioned the OEM front brakes with a comprehensive cooling solution, which several of us here use with no issues.

I'm just not sure that I agree with the conclusion that he NEEDS a BBK, especially before considering adding a cooling kit that comes at a significantly lower cost.

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Do you absolutely need a BBK to do one or two laps? No. Big ducting and aggressive pads will probably buy you enough overhead, as long as you stay NA, to do more laps. Will getting a BBK reduce your running cost? Absolutely.

The metal fatigue will eventually cause your caliper to fail. The metal fatigue will cause your stock rotors to crack. Rotors cracking (instead of getting heavily webbed with small fractures that don't propagate) is a sign that the heat cycles are too large, which means the temps are probably getting too high to begin with.

If you want to do some of your own research, try using temperature paint on your rotors, and temp strips on your calipers. Ours went off the charts under our testing. It was so severe that we had a BBK on the 2013 BRZ before we had coilovers on. This is partially dependent on your own level of development in your driving.

The cost of not having a BBK: I crack as many as 3 rotors per day when I track my S2000. The problem is, it's REALLY difficult to find wheels that clear a BBK on a S2000 without some serious work. My pads last me 4 days, at best.

Again not saying you're wrong here about anything but with this application considering the car is n/a and the heat is controlled with cooling ducts directing air into the center of the rotors and through the vanes, plus the addition of titanium shims along with track pads/fluid, the risk of catastrophic failure is pretty low based on personal experiences shared here.

My running cost after adding the cooling kit: $100 per pair of Centric blank rotors in front that last at least 5 days of abuse with track pads (PMU Club racers at $200 per front set). I've burned through two sets of front pads so far in ~10 track days and now I'm on my third set. I'm convinced the cooling kit has significantly lowered my long-term running costs on consumables, without the big (well over $2k) initial investment that a BBK comes with.

All that said, I will still probably end up with a BBK at some point because I feel like I'm getting to the point in my driving experience that I am close to exploring the limits of my car as-is. Of course I'd like more power and I'm always considering adding more with a SC kit, but a BBK will certainly come before more power. Over-provisioning never hurts even if I change my mind about adding more power.

[CSG David]

Originally Posted by ATL BRZ

Again not saying you're wrong here about anything but with this application considering the car is n/a and the heat is controlled with cooling ducts directing air into the center of the rotors and through the vanes, plus the addition of titanium shims along with track pads/fluid, the risk of catastrophic failure is pretty low based on personal experiences shared here.

My running cost after adding the cooling kit: $100 per pair of Centric blank rotors in front that last at least 5 days of abuse with track pads (PMU Club racers at $200 per front set). I've burned through two sets of front pads so far in ~10 track days and now I'm on my third set. I'm convinced the cooling kit has significantly lowered my long-term running costs on consumables, without the big (well over $2k) initial investment that a BBK comes with.

All that said, I will still probably end up with a BBK at some point because I feel like I'm getting to the point in my driving experience that I am close to exploring the limits of my car as-is. Of course I'd like more power and I'm always considering adding more with a SC kit, but a BBK will certainly come before more power. Over-provisioning never hurts even if I change my mind about adding more power.

The 3 cracked rotors per day on the S2000 is with brake ducting shooting into the eye of the rotor. Doesn't matter if it's Centric, PMU, Brembo, OEM, Duralast, DBA, etc, they will all crack at the same rate.

As for pad use, we can burn through full track pads in 1-2 days (3-4 if we baby it) on stock calipers and rotors on the BRZ.