S2000 vs BRZ vs Miata vs Fiat 124

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

From what my friend was telling me, the hondata tune sounds like an ideal upgrade. I think he's pretty set on getting it.



Yeah I have no doubt with mods the S2000 would be faster, but I can only speak to my own experience (stock AP2 vs. e85 FRS). It'll be interesting to see how much faster his S2000 gets once he has a hondata tune. I'll update here later on.

TP + Tune is ~15-20whp. Outside of that, nothing will really make power outside of getting cams, which will dramatically increase valvetrain wear.

[Goingnowherefast]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

I don't know about the "most people agree" part. Both math and used oil data over time show that 8500 will significantly increase cylinder sidewall wear. I couldn't get wear to OE levels until I was back down to 8300.

I guess the real question is how comfortable are people with going outside the OE's durability boundaries?. There's examples of tracked S2000's that have been tuned with raised redlines for over 200K miles so depending on the person, that could be considered more than acceptable.

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

While your AP2 may feel more exciting, with equally skilled drivers and a good tune, your BRZ would actually be roughly even with the AP2. You could even just measure acceleration with Draggy, and find yourself surprised at the BRZ's acceleration.

Very roughly, sure. When you look at the data, there's very few examples of an E85 NA BRZ trapping over 100 mph with full weight. While, on the other hand, there's tons of examples (even 100% bone stock cars) trapping over 100 mph with on average much lower ET's. So I mean, the proof is in the pudding.

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

The BRZ squats less and has a longer wheel base, resulting in a lesser feeling of "pull".

Uh, I mean technically the feeling of "pull" is simply your body reacting to the force of acceleration. The "squat" and long wheelbase has little to nothing to do with the acceleration G's that you feel. None of this is to say that the "perception" of G's isn't affected by what you mentioned, as well as other stimuli.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Goingnowherefast

I guess the real question is how comfortable are people with going outside the OE's durability boundaries?. There's examples of tracked S2000's that have been tuned with raised redlines for over 200K miles so depending on the person, that could be considered more than acceptable.

They must not be going very fast or exploring that elevated redline zone regularly.

Originally Posted by Goingnowherefast

Very roughly, sure. When you look at the data, there's very few examples of an E85 NA BRZ trapping over 100 mph with full weight. While, on the other hand, there's tons of examples (even 100% bone stock cars) trapping over 100 mph with on average much lower ET's. So I mean, the proof is in the pudding.

Lets throw some 205/225's on 16's on the brz, and do a similarly abusive launch, and see what happens

Alternatively, throw some 17's with a modern compound on the s2000, and watch the times skyrocket.

S2000 launching falls into a unique territory requiring some wheelspin that actually results in faster acceleration than hooking up and bogging, with no clutch slip involved.

Of course, if/when the factory diff fails from this type of drag racing, the S2000 will have effectively zero acceleration

Originally Posted by Goingnowherefast

Uh, I mean technically the feeling of "pull" is simply your body reacting to the force of acceleration. The "squat" and long wheelbase has little to nothing to do with the acceleration G's that you feel. None of this is to say that the "perception" of G's isn't affected by what you mentioned, as well as other stimuli.

It very much does so. It's precisely how amusement park rides as well as multi axis driving simulars simulate acceleration, braking, turning, and drops!

[DarkSunrise]

I met up with my friend again this morning for some more canyon runs. Good fun as always. Only change from last time was the CDV delete on his AP2. It's a pretty small difference IMO, at least in the canyons with redline shifts. I think I can tell a slight difference, but it's nothing like the quick grab feel on my stage 1 clutch, for example. Much more subtle than that.

We also did yet another pull (5-75 mph), except we switched cars for this run: I was driving his AP2 and he was in my FR-S. Pretty much the same as always, nearly even. 1st gear we were side-by-side. I pulled maybe 1/4 car at the top of 2nd, but he started inching back as soon as I shifted into 3rd. We let off before 80 mph and I think I had 1/8 car length on him at the time. No matter who is driving, it's really neck-and-neck between my E85 FR-S and his AP2. Possibly a slight advantage to his AP2, but not sure. Comes down to driver/launch more than anything.

That said, both are really amazing cars to drive in the canyons. I still prefer my FR-S, especially when I'm looking to go fast, but it's got more in the way of handling mods than his S2000 so not really a fair comparison. I'm planning to mount my stock OEM all-seasons next (8 years old now!) so that should be a better comparison.

[ROFL it's Waffle]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

I'm planning to mount my stock OEM all-seasons next (8 years old now!) so that should be a better comparison.

Ehhhh, I was chatting with a TireRack guy about the age of tire rubber. Unmounted shelf life is about 10 years, mounted life is around 6 years. My AP1 had 6 year old rears and 11 year old fronts. Safety (and handling) really comes into play when you're carving the twisties.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by ROFL it's Waffle

Ehhhh, I was chatting with a TireRack guy about the age of tire rubber. Unmounted shelf life is about 10 years, mounted life is around 6 years. My AP1 had 6 year old rears and 11 year old fronts. Safety (and handling) really comes into play when you're carving the twisties.

Yeah I'm fully expecting they'll be way down on grip being that old, but I feel like less grip is more fun on public roads. They've been sitting in a garage for the past 7 years, so at least they haven't been baking in the sun. Visually and to the touch, they seem to be in good condition too. Worst case scenario is I'll be out $100 to mount them and I can burn them up doing some drifts!

[Ernest72]

Not to be alarmist, but I would not be driving aggressive on old tires on public roads. If that tire goes there is not a lot of room for error. On track or autox you have more room, but why lose the grip. Maybe drifting to save money.

I know, I have had plenty of 7 year old tires with tons of tread left, but why accept the risk when you can afford not to. I mean it’s the only thing keeping you on the road. I have given away two sets of summers with 8 years or so on them. I often wonder how long these people drive on them.

It’s so funny that people will spend thousands modding there car, to get a second faster, but than are cheap on tires, which provide so much of your cars performance feel and safety.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by Ernest72

Not to be alarmist, but I would not be driving aggressive on old tires on public roads. If that tire goes there is not a lot of room for error. On track or autox you have more room, but why lose the grip. Maybe drifting to save money.

I know, I have had plenty of 7 year old tires with tons of tread left, but why accept the risk when you can afford not to. I mean it’s the only thing keeping you on the road. I have given away two sets of summers with 8 years or so on them. I often wonder how long these people drive on them.

It’s so funny that people will spend thousands modding there car, to get a second faster, but than are cheap on tires, which provide so much of your cars performance feel and safety.

No worries about being alarmist, I appreciate the concern! Good seeing members of the community look out for one another. So I should clarify a few things:

I've got two sets of track wheels. What I'd be doing is turning one set into low grip street/canyon wheels. The other set still has sticky 200tw tires and will continue to be used for track days.

With the way it's setup, my FR-S is much faster than my friend's S2000 in the canyons. Acceleration is even, but it's got way more grip so cornering speeds are significantly higher. It's less fun this way since I lose sight of his car in my rearview mirrors after a handful of corners, which defeats the point a bit. Putting low grip tires on my car would even the field (maybe too much, we'll see!) and also allow more opportunities to play with the handling balance.

My OEM tires/wheels are essentially paperweights at the moment since the they don't fit over my BBK. Seems like a good way to get value out of the tires. If the tires end up being really sketchy, I'll just take them off and chuck them and I'd only be out the mounting costs.

[bigfatcat]

Finally convinced the wife to let me load the E85 tune using OpenFlash after showing her how many Propel stations we have in my area(Norcal). She was worried about not having enough places to fill up as this is the car we generally use for long trips(frs is the most practical car we own, our "family car").
I've been doing a lot of research on long-term effects of using a OpenFlash E85 stage2+ tune and not flex-fuel kit. Most posts have been theoretical with no real-world reports of issues.
Has anyone had issues related to using a E85 tune after a lot of milage?

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by bigfatcat

Finally convinced the wife to let me load the E85 tune using OpenFlash after showing her how many Propel stations we have in my area(Norcal). She was worried about not having enough places to fill up as this is the car we generally use for long trips(frs is the most practical car we own, our "family car").
I've been doing a lot of research on long-term effects of using a OpenFlash E85 stage2+ tune and not flex-fuel kit. Most posts have been theoretical with no real-world reports of issues.
Has anyone had issues related to using a E85 tune after a lot of milage?

General consensus is long term e85 is fine. A couple of guys have gone 50-100k miles on e85, some track days, with no problems and clean UOAs. Anecdotally I've heard one story of black gunk building up on the inside of an engine that was disassembled after 100k+ miles on e85, but was second-hand information without any details.

There are some things you can do to be extra cautious. Use a quality SN-rated synthetic oil and change your oil more often. Don't let E85 sit in your car too long and keep your tank full. Run 91 through your car every once in a while.

[bigfatcat]

Flashed the E85 tune this weekend. First day I didn't notice much difference as I was taking it easy, but I did notice at low RPMs the car felt a little bit lighter, almost like it's more aerodynamic. I can actually pass in 6th gear on the highway now. I have UEL uncatted header and with E85 engine seems to sound a little smoother and exhaust sounds a little quieter.

Second day after the fuel trims have stablized I topped up the E85 and hit the canyons. It didn't feel like night and day difference but it was definitely very noticeable. The engine is now more eager and better matched for the handling of this car. Car no longer feels it is handicapped by the engine. Downshifts and rev matching is a bit faster and more precise. Did some pulls against my S2000 with wife behind the wheel and it's neck and neck.

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

There are some things you can do to be extra cautious. Use a quality SN-rated synthetic oil and change your oil more often. Don't let E85 sit in your car too long and keep your tank full. Run 91 through your car every once in a while.

Do you mean after a few tanks of E85. Switch tune back to 91 and run a tank of 91 then switch tune back to E85?

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by bigfatcat

Flashed the E85 tune this weekend. First day I didn't notice much difference as I was taking it easy, but I did notice at low RPMs the car felt a little bit lighter, almost like it's more aerodynamic. I can actually pass in 6th gear on the highway now. I have UEL uncatted header and with E85 engine seems to sound a little smoother and exhaust sounds a little quieter.

Second day after the fuel trims have stablized I topped up the E85 and hit the canyons. It didn't feel like night and day difference but it was definitely very noticeable. The engine is now more eager and better matched for the handling of this car. Car no longer feels it is handicapped by the engine. Downshifts and rev matching is a bit faster and more precise. Did some pulls against my S2000 with wife behind the wheel and it's neck and neck.



Do you mean after a few tanks of E85. Switch tune back to 91 and run a tank of 91 then switch tune back to E85?

Yeah some people suggest running a tank of 91 every once in a while because its supposed to contain higher levels of detergents. Not sure it's necessary but can't hurt either.

[serialk11r]

Originally Posted by ROFL it's Waffle

Ehhhh, I was chatting with a TireRack guy about the age of tire rubber. Unmounted shelf life is about 10 years, mounted life is around 6 years.

I dunno about that, my FR-S tires had some tread left but the compound itself was very very "greasy" at 4 years when I got rid of it. Not sure if thermal cycling or winter usage by a previous owner had something to do with that. I guess it depends on the tire, where it's stored, how it's used, etc. I didn't notice much loss of grip at 5 years on some other cars.

[ROFL it's Waffle]

Originally Posted by serialk11r

I dunno about that, my FR-S tires had some tread left but the compound itself was very very "greasy" at 4 years when I got rid of it. Not sure if thermal cycling or winter usage by a previous owner had something to do with that. I guess it depends on the tire, where it's stored, how it's used, etc. I didn't notice much loss of grip at 5 years on some other cars.

My S2000 rears were about 6 years old, the fronts were 11 years old. The tire compound was stiff, which is "fine" if you want a low coefficient of kinetic friction (Mu). For grip (stopping distance), which would you depend on in an emergency?