S2000 vs BRZ vs Miata vs Fiat 124

[bigfatcat]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

zero long term issues. If you're stopped at a light, you'll get a little more heat soak than usual, but no more than a K&N FPIK.

Nice! Just noticed you have a CR] Ive always wanted to try one, but they are getting super pricy(had the chance to pick one up for around 20k back in 2009 but didn't). How does it compare with a regular S?

[serialk11r]

I just noticed this now exists: https://bbrgti.com/products/bbr-mx-5...2019-on-184-ps

I'm guessing most of that comes from the cams, since they only squeezed 7hp out of a tune only. They've done some kind of correction to the HP number so I think the actual bhp may be a little lower. Intake manifold hasn't been touched and the bottom end hasn't been touched, so this little Skyactiv has the potential to get pretty uncomfortably close to S2000 power.

This further reinforces my thinking that if you don't need the S2000's bigger cabin, the ND is pretty tough to beat.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by bigfatcat

Nice! Just noticed you have a CR] Ive always wanted to try one, but they are getting super pricy(had the chance to pick one up for around 20k back in 2009 but didn't). How does it compare with a regular S?

Slightly stiffer chassis due to the additional bracing, significantly more NVH as there's zero factory sound deadening, but that NVH is what gives the s2k character to begin with! The intake airbox or exposed filter K&N FIPK is a perfect example of that.

The exhaust is a big louder, but nothing noisier. Suspension is significantly different in damping, but coilovers would make that moot as well.

[DarkSunrise]

I've been driving my friends ap2 s2000 in the canyons every other weekend for the past 1-2 months so I thought I'd post an update here. He's done a few mods since my last post, namely fresher OEM dampers and a max OEM camber alignment (roughly -2.0 F, -2.8 R). I thought these were nice improvements over his previous setup. Seems like the front end has more grip now and maintains contact better with the ground over midcorner bumps. I can still feel the rear rotating under moderate trail-braking but nothing that will catch you out. I actually find his current setup very intuitive and easy to drive aggressively (coming from my tracked FRS). The balance is adjustable with the pedals, which I like. With stickier tires I think he'll want to dial in the alignment a bit more, but on his current tires I think it's good enough.

He also added stoptech sport pads which are just ok. The hot bite is good, but the pads still fade in the canyons when driven moderately hard.

I also upgraded my FRS to a lighter flywheel and wanted to see if I'd notice any difference against his s2000. We did a 25-80 mph pull starting in 2nd. Surprisingly this time he pulled half a car in the beginning of 2nd and then we were dead even the rest of the way. Not the result I was expecting! He claimed he may have jumped the horn a bit in the beginning and was able to nail the 2-3 shift (i.e., minimal CDV delay) but I was expecting to make up some ground and instead it was completely even after that. He also had his top up that run (vs. his top down the last time I pulled on him) so maybe that made a difference. I'll try to do another pull with him at some future time, but interesting how close it is between an e85 FRS and stock ap2 in a straight line, which makes it fun in the canyons.

Overall I still really enjoy driving his s2000, especially as his car gets closer to how I've setup my FRS. Both of us agree the powerband on the f22c still feels somewhat narrow at times compared with the e85 fa20. He's looking into a hondata tune to lower the vtec xover and raise the redline to try to get at least a 3000 rpm spread on the top end. After that, I think the next area to address will be his brakes. On my FRS, I'm going to see if I can get a set of low grip street tires to match his and even out the playing field a bit in the canyons. Should be fun!

[bigfatcat]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

We did a 25-80 mph pull starting in 2nd. Surprisingly this time he pulled half a car in the beginning of 2nd and then we were dead even the rest of the way. Not the result I was expecting!

Wonder how much slower it will be without E85 against the S2000. I want to load the E85 tune but wife won't let me. How much butt dyno difference does E85 actually make for this car?

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by bigfatcat

Wonder how much slower it will be without E85 against the S2000. I want to load the E85 tune but wife won't let me. How much butt dyno difference does E85 actually make for this car?

I brought out my FR-S on a stock tune/91 octane about a month ago. We didn't get a chance to do any side-by-side pulls, but it was noticeably slower than on e85. If I were to guess, I think the S2000 (and e85 FRS) would be 1.5-2 car lengths ahead from 25-80.

On the butt dyno, the e85 tune is enough to be noticeable, but nothing crazy. Just makes the engine feel satisfying, especially from 4000-7400 rpm.

[nikitopo]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

I brought out my FR-S on a stock tune/91 octane about a month ago. We didn't get a chance to do any side-by-side pulls, but it was noticeably slower than on e85. If I were to guess, I think the S2000 (and e85 FRS) would be 1.5-2 car lengths ahead from 25-80.

On the butt dyno, the e85 tune is enough to be noticeable, but nothing crazy. Just makes the engine feel satisfying, especially from 4000-7400 rpm.

Do you have any logs with the e85 tune? Just curious how much additional timing you can get.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

Do you have any logs with the e85 tune? Just curious how much additional timing you can get.

Yeah here's a log:

https://datazap.me/u/darksunrise/532...zoom=1156-1273

Short answer is 34 degrees from approx. 6800-7400 RPM. That's about 10 degrees more on the top end than with the stock tune.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

I've been driving my friends ap2 s2000 in the canyons every other weekend for the past 1-2 months so I thought I'd post an update here. He's done a few mods since my last post, namely fresher OEM dampers and a max OEM camber alignment (roughly -2.0 F, -2.8 R). I thought these were nice improvements over his previous setup. Seems like the front end has more grip now and maintains contact better with the ground over midcorner bumps. I can still feel the rear rotating under moderate trail-braking but nothing that will catch you out. I actually find his current setup very intuitive and easy to drive aggressively (coming from my tracked FRS). The balance is adjustable with the pedals, which I like. With stickier tires I think he'll want to dial in the alignment a bit more, but on his current tires I think it's good enough.

He also added stoptech sport pads which are just ok. The hot bite is good, but the pads still fade in the canyons when driven moderately hard.

I also upgraded my FRS to a lighter flywheel and wanted to see if I'd notice any difference against his s2000. We did a 25-80 mph pull starting in 2nd. Surprisingly this time he pulled half a car in the beginning of 2nd and then we were dead even the rest of the way. Not the result I was expecting! He claimed he may have jumped the horn a bit in the beginning and was able to nail the 2-3 shift (i.e., minimal CDV delay) but I was expecting to make up some ground and instead it was completely even after that. He also had his top up that run (vs. his top down the last time I pulled on him) so maybe that made a difference. I'll try to do another pull with him at some future time, but interesting how close it is between an e85 FRS and stock ap2 in a straight line, which makes it fun in the canyons.

Overall I still really enjoy driving his s2000, especially as his car gets closer to how I've setup my FRS. Both of us agree the powerband on the f22c still feels somewhat narrow at times compared with the e85 fa20. He's looking into a hondata tune to lower the vtec xover and raise the redline to try to get at least a 3000 rpm spread on the top end. After that, I think the next area to address will be his brakes. On my FRS, I'm going to see if I can get a set of low grip street tires to match his and even out the playing field a bit in the canyons. Should be fun!

Lets get him some proper pads for that car!

Any reason he didn't do the CDV delete?

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Lets get him some proper pads for that car!

Any reason he didn't do the CDV delete?

Yeah he actually deleted the CDV after trying my stage 1 clutch . He had to use the drill out method. I'm really curious to try it out since I was never a fan of the soft clutch engagement on the AP2, but he's told me it's only half the problem. Apparently the other issue is the weight of the AP2 flywheel vs. pressure plate (I'm sure you know what he's talking about). Also he's started to hear a faint supercharger-like whine in 4th-6th gears when on the throttle. Not sure if related to the CDV delete, but seems to have happened around the same time.

He shopped around on the CSG page when looking for Stoptech pads but couldn't find them. When he upgrades before his first track day, I'm sure he'll pick up some Carbotech or G-loc pads from you guys.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

Yeah he actually deleted the CDV after trying my stage 1 clutch . He had to use the drill out method. I'm really curious to try it out since I was never a fan of the soft clutch engagement on the AP2, but he's told me it's only half the problem. Apparently the other issue is the weight of the AP2 flywheel vs. pressure plate (I'm sure you know what he's talking about). Also he's started to hear a faint supercharger-like whine in 4th-6th gears when on the throttle. Not sure if related to the CDV delete, but seems to have happened around the same time.

He shopped around on the CSG page when looking for Stoptech pads but couldn't find them. When he upgrades before his first track day, I'm sure he'll pick up some Carbotech or G-loc pads from you guys.

Just have him e-mail if he wants anything specific.

The clutch as a whole is fairly soft; a heavier pressure plate would fix it as would a lighter flywheel.

My favorite OE style combo is Toda or Spoon flywheel with OEM disc, and ACT pressure plate. The combo is light, but will easily hold any reasonable amount of boosted power as well.

Conversion for push/pull is OS Giken, which is king, but not everyone likes the floating basket noise.

That ring is a royal PITA to get out.

[Goingnowherefast]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

Overall I still really enjoy driving his s2000, especially as his car gets closer to how I've setup my FRS. Both of us agree the powerband on the f22c still feels somewhat narrow at times compared with the e85 fa20. He's looking into a hondata tune to lower the vtec xover and raise the redline to try to get at least a 3000 rpm spread on the top end. After that, I think the next area to address will be his brakes. On my FRS, I'm going to see if I can get a set of low grip street tires to match his and even out the playing field a bit in the canyons. Should be fun!

Coming from an AP2 S2000 into an E85 BRZ this thread really interests me. First thing, the S2000's makes massive gains under the curve when lowering the VTEC engagement speed. Additionally, most people agree that you can set an AP2 to an 8,500 rpm redline safely, with no noticeable long-term degradation. Those two items alone make the difference between a stock AP2 and a tuned one as much as a change what E85 is to the GT86 platform. It'll be a whole new car.

To add to this, I believe my 2005 S2000 (intake, single exhaust, no tune, test pipe on 93 octane) would put a bus length on my BRZ (Tomei UEL, single exhaust, stage 2+, full E85) no problem.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by Goingnowherefast

Coming from an AP2 S2000 into an E85 BRZ this thread really interests me. First thing, the S2000's makes massive gains under the curve when lowering the VTEC engagement speed. Additionally, most people agree that you can set an AP2 to an 8,500 rpm redline safely, with no noticeable long-term degradation. Those two items alone make the difference between a stock AP2 and a tuned one as much as a change what E85 is to the GT86 platform. It'll be a whole new car.

From what my friend was telling me, the hondata tune sounds like an ideal upgrade. I think he's pretty set on getting it.

Originally Posted by Goingnowherefast

To add to this, I believe my 2005 S2000 (intake, single exhaust, no tune, test pipe on 93 octane) would put a bus length on my BRZ (Tomei UEL, single exhaust, stage 2+, full E85) no problem.

Yeah I have no doubt with mods the S2000 would be faster, but I can only speak to my own experience (stock AP2 vs. e85 FRS). It'll be interesting to see how much faster his S2000 gets once he has a hondata tune. I'll update here later on.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Goingnowherefast

Coming from an AP2 S2000 into an E85 BRZ this thread really interests me. First thing, the S2000's makes massive gains under the curve when lowering the VTEC engagement speed. Additionally, most people agree that you can set an AP2 to an 8,500 rpm redline safely, with no noticeable long-term degradation. Those two items alone make the difference between a stock AP2 and a tuned one as much as a change what E85 is to the GT86 platform. It'll be a whole new car.

To add to this, I believe my 2005 S2000 (intake, single exhaust, no tune, test pipe on 93 octane) would put a bus length on my BRZ (Tomei UEL, single exhaust, stage 2+, full E85) no problem.

I don't know about the "most people agree" part. Both math and used oil data over time show that 8500 will significantly increase cylinder sidewall wear. I couldn't get wear to OE levels until I was back down to 8300.

Mathematically, ~8900 F20C ~~8242 F22C

While AUC increases with a VTEC drop, swept area (mostly) does not, and for redline pulls, zero gains are realized on a F20C, and only marginal gains on the 1-2 and 2-3 shifts on a F22C.

While your AP2 may feel more exciting, with equally skilled drivers and a good tune, your BRZ would actually be roughly even with the AP2. You could even just measure acceleration with Draggy, and find yourself surprised at the BRZ's acceleration. The BRZ squats less and has a longer wheel base, resulting in a lesser feeling of "pull".