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FR-S / BRZ vs.... Area to discuss the FR-S/BRZ against its competitors [NO STREET RACING]


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Old 05-07-2020, 12:36 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Ohio Enthusiast View Post
Just out of curiosity, how would you compare the steering between the two? Most reviews I read and saw complained about the S2K steering feel.
S2k steering feel is numb. You have to just trust it, but also know, that a well set up s2k will essentially never run out of front grip.
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Old 05-07-2020, 12:51 AM   #44
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I would like to add, after reading CSG Mike's comments, that as far as "speed" goes both are pretty similar in this regard despite the advantage the S2K carries in power. So I certainly wouldn't let the power/speed stats change your opinion on which car to choose. It really comes down to personal tastes and for me, the S2K is just a special car which appeals to my inner Honda fanboi since I was in high school and college during the early to mid-90s when the Japanese were playing their A-game with affordable, well-built, sporty cars. I also dislike the FA20, but I'm sure some of that is it lacks the character/soul of the F20/F22C engines.

With all that being said, I still think about getting a used Twin and turning it into a track car because it's still a great chassis and there is a ton of aftermarket support that won't break the bank if you are trying to stay on a budget. (I know budget's are subjective to everyone, but you get the idea)
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Old 05-07-2020, 03:39 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by CSG Mike View Post
Your description makes it sound like your friend's AP2 has the following:

- much larger tire stagger than AP1
- worn out dampers


- top down has a HUGE effect on drag
- A stock AP2 is about neck and neck with a Ace header + E85, assuming both cars are shifted similarly. The S2k isn't that fast, and weighs more.
Great point about his dampers. His car has 135k+ miles so I wouldn't be surprised if his dampers are worn by now. I think a new set would help with that floatiness over midcorner bumps.

Regarding power, I actually talked to him again about the pull we did. He said my FR-S pulled .75 - 1 car length on him right after his 1-2 shift, making him think it was the clutch delay valve. After that, he said we were even until 80. I had a feeling it would be close based on AP1's I've encountered at the track, but I thought the AP2's made a bit more jam. We're planning some more canyon runs in the future so we'll have a chance to re-test after he deletes the CDV.

I actually think driving my FR-S caught him off-guard. The next few days, he kept saying he couldn't believe how well my FR-S was setup and that he was so impressed by it.

Thinking back, I have to say that in its current state (mild weight reduction, e85, coilovers, BBK, tires) I also preferred driving my FR-S over his stock AP2 in the canyons. Overall acceleration was similar but the FA20 torque spread on e85 was wider (4500-7500 vs. 6000-8200), the T2 coilovers handled imperfect roads better, and the Wilwood BBK was of course better. The driving position and forward visibility also seemed better on the FR-S. I think the only things I preferred on the AP2 were the shifter and the engine sound.

BTW for the AP2 owners out there, this isn't a knock on the that car in anyway. I think it's amazing what Honda packaged into a stock car 20 years ago. But the hype never matched reality, at least for me. That said, my opinion will probably change whenever I get the chance to drive one at the track (and especially with similar mods). I get the feeling you can't truly appreciate an S2000 until you're in a setting where you can safely explore the limits of its chassis.

Lastly - someone asked about comparative steering feel. My friend actually did comment he thought the steering feedback was better in the FR-S. While I agree (and that feedback helps build confidence when approaching the limit), I think it's such a minor drawback on the S2000 as to be barely worth mentioning. Just my 2c, others may feel differently.
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Old 05-07-2020, 05:15 AM   #46
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AP1 and AP2 have idential AUC, but AP2 read higher peak power on the dyno. This is why I always preach powerband, not peak numbers!

Fresh dampers on an s2k will make a world of difference. Stock s2k dampers are fantatic, and the rears even have remote reservoirs *on the factory dampers*.

As with most cars by 60k miles, the factory dampers are pretty dead.
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Old 05-07-2020, 09:36 AM   #47
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I'll add to this necro-thread since I have owned two S2000( both an AP1 and AP2) and a 2013 FRS. I can't compare the Miatas and Fiats as I have no experience with either nor do I plan to ever own one. The truth is, I HATE convertibles with a passion so the fact I have now owned two S2Ks ought to say something about how "special" that car is (at least for a lot of people who have owned them and/or driven them).

I owned a 2004 S2K back in 2004-05. I bought it "used" at the time, but it only had 3K miles on it and had the OEM hardtop. I bought the car for 23K, yes, you read that right. I'm a fool for trading it in but alas, sometimes we all do dumb things.

Fast forward 8 years and I was on the hype train for the Twins. To me, at the time, it seemed liked the S2K we never got from Honda. A small, light, RWD, sports car that was not a convertible. I owned my FRS for about the same length of time as my S2K, both were DD, and both were fun cars but the FRS never felt "special" to me and my biggest let down was the FA20.

I know Dezoris/Savagegeese was brought up earlier in this thread and like him or hate him, he recent;y did another review of the 86 as this is the last MY for the Twins. I think he was pretty honest in his review and he actually spoke pretty highly of what the chassis has evolved into. His biggest complaint, with which I agree, is that the car came with the wrong engine from the start.

I know this is subjective and I understand the economics of it, but when you actually compare what the S2K and Twins came with from the factory, you have to give the nod to the S2K. I understand that if you compare real world dollars factoring in inflation and initial cost, the S2K is a more expensive car however when you actually consider what that car came with from the factory, it seems like a real bargain compared to the Twins.

Toyota/Subaru jointly developed this car and yet the cost cutting was so extreme on every part of the car, it makes you wonder why they didn't at least spend the money on giving us a better engine. Kind of like a new Mustang, you get a great engine (at least with the 5.0 Coyote) but there's a lot left to be desired with the rest of the car.

I guess my final thoughts are this: if you want a newer car, with more modern creature comforts and more room to carry equipment and you don't want a convertible, then the Twins are probably the best option between the two.

However, if you want a car that is more raw, is the result of a Honda company that was at its prime in engineering and vision, and a superb chassis with a spectacular engine, then the S2K is probably a great choice. The other good news is that the S2K has hit the bottom of the depreciation curve and is only going up now. The downside is the S2K tax if you want to modify/tune the chassis.

I picked up my 2002 S2K 3 years ago now, 107,000 miles on it, bone stock, never modified, no accidents, and that's how I have been driving it for the last 3 years while I purchase parts to make a truly memorable S2K build (thanks @CounterSpace Garage I hate you and so does my bank account...i.e. my wife). I still enjoy driving the car in stock form, all these years later (I never modified my 2004 S2K) but I am really looking to push this car by making it an extreme version of what came from the factory. Now I'm just praying Honda will start making the hardtops again so I can buy one at a "reasonable" price point because the used market is absolutely insane on OEM hardtops.
I like FA20 engine. Mine is running at 50% higher power very nicely, 3 years now. I would take this high-compression, high-rev, dual-injection, highly-efficient engine over any other more-than-a-decade-old engine any time. I am getting more than 30 mpg for normal driving at 300HP power level reliably and I have no further expectations. I remember savagegees first set of video. He tried FI and screwed up badly due to his own incompetence. I can take that only once and did not even check his second review. Google knows I don't like his videos fortunately.
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Old 05-07-2020, 10:07 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by DarkSunrise View Post
Regarding power, I actually talked to him again about the pull we did. He said my FR-S pulled .75 - 1 car length on him right after his 1-2 shift, making him think it was the clutch delay valve. After that, he said we were even until 80. I had a feeling it would be close based on AP1's I've encountered at the track, but I thought the AP2's made a bit more jam.
2.2 liter typically makes more peak rwhp, *but* the limiter cuts in at 8200rpm, only just past power peak. Whereas the 2.0 liter AP1 makes less power but continues to rev past its ~8300rpm power peak up to 9000rpm, so you can keep it nearer peak power more of the time. With stock rev limiters, the AP1 has a much broader usable powerband.
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Old 05-07-2020, 10:11 AM   #49
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Holy thread revival Batman!

Congrats on your first post.
Too bad it was a little girls sad attempt to make me feel something?

FYI since then I haven't stopped shitting on "engineers". And guess what? I'm still doing it.
They posted at 8:58 and logged out the last time at 8:58. Probably a regular that just made a new account to shit on an old post since they don't have the balls to do it in the open!
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Old 05-07-2020, 11:12 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by CSG Mike View Post
AP1 and AP2 have idential AUC, but AP2 read higher peak power on the dyno. This is why I always preach powerband, not peak numbers!

Fresh dampers on an s2k will make a world of difference. Stock s2k dampers are fantatic, and the rears even have remote reservoirs *on the factory dampers*.

As with most cars by 60k miles, the factory dampers are pretty dead.
Pretty cool that Honda threw remote reservoirs on the rears from the factory. You can tell their intended purpose with the car from details like that. I'll suggest to my friend to replace his dampers.

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2.2 liter typically makes more peak rwhp, *but* the limiter cuts in at 8200rpm, only just past power peak. Whereas the 2.0 liter AP1 makes less power but continues to rev past its ~8300rpm power peak up to 9000rpm, so you can keep it nearer peak power more of the time. With stock rev limiters, the AP1 has a much broader usable powerband.
Yeah I'd love to try the AP1. I think a wider powerband is what I was looking for.
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Old 05-07-2020, 11:33 AM   #51
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Yeah I'd love to try the AP1. I think a wider powerband is what I was looking for.
The '06+ AP2s can be reflashed to increase rev limit and decrease VTEC engagement rpm. I think an F22C with VTEC engagement move down to ~4500 and rev-limiter upped to 8500+ rpm should work great.
Peak piston acceleration for 2.2 at 8580rpm roughly equal to 2.0 at 9000...
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Old 05-07-2020, 05:14 PM   #52
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With an otherwise stock car, you don't want to lower VTEC too much; 5200 is about the lowest you want to go, but it already improves the powerband a ton. The 6000 VTEC is mainly for marketing purposes.
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Old 05-07-2020, 05:47 PM   #53
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With an otherwise stock car, you don't want to lower VTEC too much; 5200 is about the lowest you want to go, but it already improves the powerband a ton. The 6000 VTEC is mainly for marketing purposes.
I thought it was to meet sound regs? In any case 6000rpm is ridiculously high as by that time the engine has totally run out of breath on the small cam lobes.

Looks like this guy did fine knocking VTEC rpm down to 4100, looks about the right spot for it. For this engine anyway...

https://www.s2ki.com/forums/s2000-na...ashpro-857902/

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Old 05-07-2020, 05:49 PM   #54
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I thought it was to meet sound regs? In any case 6000rpm is ridiculously high as by that time the engine has totally run out of breath on the small cam lobes.

Looks like this guy did fine knocking VTEC rpm down to 4100, looks about the right spot for it. For this engine anyway...

https://www.s2ki.com/forums/s2000-na...ashpro-857902/

Gotta test pipe to go that low
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Old 05-07-2020, 05:54 PM   #55
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Gotta test pipe to go that low
Ah, gotcha! Anyway it's a good look at what higher rev limit and lower VTEC can do for ya, nearly double the usable rpm range!
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Old 05-08-2020, 01:00 AM   #56
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I like FA20 engine. Mine is running at 50% higher power very nicely, 3 years now. I would take this high-compression, high-rev, dual-injection, highly-efficient engine over any other more-than-a-decade-old engine any time. I am getting more than 30 mpg for normal driving at 300HP power level reliably and I have no further expectations. I remember savagegees first set of video. He tried FI and screwed up badly due to his own incompetence. I can take that only once and did not even check his second review. Google knows I don't like his videos fortunately.
Well, I at least was trying to actually give an honest opinion to the OPs original question comparing 2 of the 4 vehicles in this comparison list. I DD both an S2K and an FRS, I put about 50K miles on the former and 30K miles on the latter. Granted, none of this was track time and/or "racing" but IMO the S2K is a much better car all around, especially in terms of engineering. I don't think I would even put the FA20 in the same league as the F20C/F22C engines, but again, that's personal opionion.

If I wanted great fuel economy, I wouldn't be driving a sports car. Plenty of econo-boxes out there that are more practical for DD. At least for now, people can still have some say on what they buy and drive, though as pointed out in many other threads across a vast ocean of car forums, the clock is ticking because of all the regulations that keep getting rammed down everyone's throat. I'd also say newer isn't always better, plenty of examples for that if I wanted to get picky.

It seems like you are wanting to defend your purchase more than add to the thread for someone maybe wanting to see what the pros/cons are of these vehicles that are being compared. To add to why I would choose an S2K over the Twins, let me explain in greater detail:

1. Desirability-These cars aren't being made anymore, there's a limited number available at any given time, the car was a "one off" by Honda at the height of its glory days, and there will probably never be another car like this unless it's some sort of exotic, low production type car (I know "desirability" is somewhat subjective, but the market does have some say in this and there is a reason the S2K is going up in value)

2. Engineering-The car is a marvel of engineering in many ways and is well built. Many examples out there with over 200K on the motors and still going strong, many with FI at power levels twice what it came from the factory.

3. Engine-Goes with #2, you not only get a 9/8K redline from the factory, but an engine with all forged internals (probably why they take to boost with little to no issues).

4. Ease of maintenance-You can really start to appreciate this if you end up having to do any work on your own car. The MY2000-2005 are basically a mechanical car, I don't even have a TPMS system in my 2002. It is refreshing to know that you can do pretty much any job in your own garage with the right tools. Everything is easily accessible on the engine, it took me 5 minutes to change my coil packs when I got the car. Add another 10 to do the sparks plugs, but since I had a shop the only works on Hondas/Acuras do my valve adjustment/AP2 retainers upgrade when I got the car, I had them do the spark plugs while there were working on the car. (time will tell how well the FA20 holds up, but ease of maintenance is certainly not a strong point for this engine layout and engine bay)

5. Fun factor-Now this is certainly subjective, but again, even if the Twins are slightly faster than a S2K when comparing stock to stock, the S2K just feels a lot more fun to drive in stock form. I'm sure a moderately modified Twin would possible change this equation.

While this is certainly not everything, it's the major points for me when comparing these two/three vehicles. I don't dislike the Twins at all and from what I have been told by the guys at CSG, the 2017+ cars had some major changes to suspension that made these cars better. I even stated I have considered owning another one, because it would be a great track car and easily replaced if I completely destroyed it, whereas smashing an S2K isn't something I want to experience because of how much these cars are starting to command for a decent example.

And for the record, I don't hate the FA20. I think it's a "good" engine for what it is. I just don't think it's "great" and I feel this was the one major weakness of the design and I'm not even saying it needed "moar powah" it just seemed underwhelming in stock form. Certainly modifications can change this equation but a) that costs money b) it voids your warranty if you have a newer car and not a good idea if you rely on it for your DD and c) when I bought my FRS, I was one of the first so this engine was an unknown commodity so I didn't want to risk it at the time. Certainly this isn't true anymore because we now know what it's strengths and weaknesses are.

To sum up, I know you saw this post on the GR86 thread, but I think it is a good summation of how I feel about the FA20 when comparing it to a F20C/F22C or just about any other Honda/Toyota engine:

Originally Posted by ichitaka05 View Post
2 things to note here & this isn't pin pointing at you only, but to everyone who thinking about FA24 is a solution.
1. I've talked with few engineers from Toyota side and they're still baffled on why Subaru to making the way they're making their engine. Engine is so unbalanced. Even in US, engine shops have seen huge difference in weight in each cylinders. Hell, if Honda engineers see it, they'll laugh at how bad it is. Even GR engineers stated that, if they fully build engine FA20 the way Toyota build it, it can easily push 220 safely and proven that w 86GRMN. But Subaru doesn't not want to change the way they build the engine (for cost cutting or whatever) they'll make hit or miss engine aka ticking bomb. It took long time to Tada-san tell them how to build this FA engine. They didn't want to hear what he gotta say, but had to listen. Now, they use that knowledge to make FA20DIT, which I would say damn good engine. BUT that information was giving from Toyota side, so you can take it as a grain of salt... I feel like history of EJ engine pretty much proven this. BUT that can be said the same w Toyota US dealership mech too, so Toyota can't really say much lol
2. List stock Subaru 4 cylinder boxer engine that's over 2L that have higher rpm than FA20 or EJ20. I'll wait. Cuz there aren't any. Even the famous 22B (EJ22) can't rev higher than EJ20. Look at JDM STI vs USDM STI redline. Yeah... it's different for sure, cuz JDM uses EJ207 vs USDM uses EJ257. That 0.5L make HUGE difference. So IDK why ppl are so hyped about FA24 gonna be equipped in next gen. Technically, FA24 was build for heavy car aka having ton of power low end w no power high end. Of course, that can be changed, but Subaru gonna change THAT much difference? Hm... questionable. Subaru's boxer engine already dying at high end from NA form adding extra 0.4L with extra weight on the car is like making fat person sprint. Don't get me wrong, you'll feel a lot more tq than current 86, but what do you get at the high end? Nothing. Oh wait, after tq dip, you got +-1k rpm til it'll hit the redline. Oh~ you thought tq dip was only FA thing? FA20 causes more tq dip than other Subaru boxer engine due to switch of DI to PI, but tq dip is in EVERY Subaru boxer engine. Recently Subaru is hiding it well w turbo spooling early.

With that said, take my info as a grain of salt. I don't have ALL the info of next gen. All I can say is adding power or spec on the paper isn't always the answer. This car, 86/BRZ was the example of that. Now, greedy people want a bit of juice from this car is making this car isn't what made this car is. Not everything is bad from next gen (I've heard few good infos), but we can only hope and guestimate.
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