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Old 02-03-2017, 04:01 PM   #29
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The difference is the engineering explained dude actually knows stuff about cars. Most of these other clowns are just scene kid weeabos who don't particularly know a lot and do just what you said; talk to a camera for 10 minutes about a bunch of stupid shit with maybe 30 seconds of actual content mixed in.
My favorite is savagegeese. He always sounds disappointed and regrets everything. He constantly hates on everything along with his friend in dispair Turbowski.
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Old 02-03-2017, 04:12 PM   #30
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My favorite is savagegeese. He always sounds disappointed and regrets everything. He constantly hates on everything along with his friend in dispair Turbowski.
Personally, I got tired of Dezoris' act/persona fast. At the same time, I think he did too. If you've noticed over the past few months and videos, he's become less curmudgeon-like. Almost like that angsty teenage hormone rebellion charachter is giving way to a more nuanced worldview, approach and presentation. Turbowski, OTOH that dude comes across exactly the same. Typical gearhead caveman archetype that speaks two words per sentence and fools some into thinking there are buckets of wisdom behind those two words when actually it's just a lazy mind. He's loveable but really should grow up. Then again, that act makes him a perfect sidekick.
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Old 02-03-2017, 06:31 PM   #31
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I'd like to weigh in with an opinion but I don't even watch them anymore unless they come recommended. One move view is one more hundredth of a cent or whatever, and that much more famous they get. I don't need to support haggard garage, TJ Hunt, etc. by watching all their videos just to laugh at them. If nobody did that shit and didn't spread their names hating on them all the time, these idiots wouldn't be half as popular as they are.
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Old 02-08-2017, 10:32 AM   #32
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Personally, I got tired of Dezoris' act/persona fast. At the same time, I think he did too. If you've noticed over the past few months and videos, he's become less curmudgeon-like. Almost like that angsty teenage hormone rebellion charachter is giving way to a more nuanced worldview, approach and presentation. Turbowski, OTOH that dude comes across exactly the same. Typical gearhead caveman archetype that speaks two words per sentence and fools some into thinking there are buckets of wisdom behind those two words when actually it's just a lazy mind. He's loveable but really should grow up. Then again, that act makes him a perfect sidekick.
Turbowski is comic relief, though he does chime in with some practical concerns from time to time.

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Old 02-08-2017, 06:50 PM   #33
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If you've noticed over the past few months and videos, he's become less curmudgeon-like. Almost like that angsty teenage hormone rebellion charachter is giving way to a more nuanced worldview, approach and presentation.
Probably a function of his relationship with the cars he reviews now and what seems to be the goal of becoming a more serious reviewer (calling someone's car trash is a good way to piss off the wrong people). They're press cars, not a depreciating wad of cash he blew and has to live with for a few years. He shoveled on the shit for his M3 recently.

Part of why every review is basically 'great car, here's half a dozen nitpicks' is because when you spend only a few days/hours it's hard to develop overly strong feelings. Dude lived with an 86 for nearly three years, he took it apart and put it back together with his own hands more times than half this board put together. I'd be disappointed if he didn't develop any feelings for the thing and it'd be pretty boring review.

If nothing else I'll watch his reviews on cars I'm interested in because he puts the damn thing on a lift and points out all the stuff that everybody else just reads off the spec sheet. Yeah you have to take it with a grain of salt (or lack thereof while I live in California) but aside from Edmunds I haven't seen anybody else consistently take a look at what's 'under the hood' and that really is worth something if you're ever thinking of having a car for a long time and doing your own work/modifications.

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Old 04-29-2020, 09:58 PM   #34
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Yeah, and que every "I'm a engineer" meme there is. Also every time some one says he/they are any type of engineer, I hear it in a retarded voice.
you're the stereotypical autistic gearhead, uneducated, couldnt drive himself out of a cardboard box. insecure and lashing out when actual engineers who are educated in cars gives him a lesson. please delete your account and preferably your life.
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Old 04-30-2020, 03:37 AM   #35
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you're the stereotypical autistic gearhead, uneducated, couldnt drive himself out of a cardboard box. insecure and lashing out when actual engineers who are educated in cars gives him a lesson. please delete your account and preferably your life.
Holy thread revival Batman!

Congrats on your first post.
Too bad it was a little girls sad attempt to make me feel something?

FYI since then I haven't stopped shitting on "engineers". And guess what? I'm still doing it.
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Old 05-03-2020, 04:33 AM   #36
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Bringing this thread back on-topic. I had a chance to do some extended canyon runs this morning in a friend's AP2 S2000. It's been a while since I drove one, but was immediately reminded how it's a fun lightweight, RWD car. I can see why people bring it up often when talking about the FR-S. For comparison purposes, we swapped back and forth with my track-modded FR-S to feel out the differences.

The first thing that surprised me was how stable the AP2 felt. I've spun once as a passenger in an AP1 (hogpen at VIR), and the AP2 was definitely not as quick to let go. The few times I could feel the rear end starting to rotate under power, it was exactly where I was expecting and fairly progressive. That's a good improvement over the AP1 anywhere other than possibly the track. I'd love to explore the AP1/AP2 differences a bit more on the track, but I would be very hesitant to push an AP1 as hard on any normal road.

The other thing that got highlighted quickly is how good the damping is on the RCE T2's I've got on the FR-S. Driven back-to-back with the OEM S2000 suspension, we agreed the T2's soaked up midcorner bumps like a champ. My friend was surprised when I told him the spring rates and described the damping as luxury/plush. Not sure I'd go that far having been rattled by them on some rough roads, but suffice to say I already liked them on the track and was actually more impressed by them in real-world canyon roads.

The AP2 F22C engine was not bad. The powerband doesn't really come on strong until 6500 RPM, but redline is 8000 RPM, so it feels like you have about 1500 RPM to play with before upshifting. This engine will punish you anywhere under 6000 RPM (vtec engagement), similar to the FR-S when you drop under 4500 RPM. Both mills are kind of peaky, but the S2000 even more so. I'd really like to try an AP1 to see if I'd prefer a wider but weaker powerband.

In terms of power, the stock AP2 was very similar to my FR-S on an e85 tune. We both thought the AP2 felt stronger (particularly top-end once it crests 6.5K RPM), but weren't sure so later we did a side-by-side pull from 15-80 mph. Surprisingly the FR-S pulled slightly ahead in 1st and held the gap. I think stock AP2's are in the 205-210 whp range, so unclear what's going on. Maybe aero drag from the top down or the slightly heavier curb weight. My friend said the clutch delay valve also slowed his 1-2 upshift, which is definitely noticeable when you drive the car so I can believe that. Probably doesn't help that the 15 mph start puts the S2000 in the middle of its pre-VTEC torque dip.

Overall I really enjoyed the S2000. Not sure they're worth the crazy money they go for, but hype aside, it's another fun, light, high-strung car from Japan. The S2000, RX-8, FR-S/BRZ, and ND Miata all feel like different ways to skin the same cat.
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Old 05-06-2020, 09:17 PM   #37
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I'll add to this necro-thread since I have owned two S2000( both an AP1 and AP2) and a 2013 FRS. I can't compare the Miatas and Fiats as I have no experience with either nor do I plan to ever own one. The truth is, I HATE convertibles with a passion so the fact I have now owned two S2Ks ought to say something about how "special" that car is (at least for a lot of people who have owned them and/or driven them).

I owned a 2004 S2K back in 2004-05. I bought it "used" at the time, but it only had 3K miles on it and had the OEM hardtop. I bought the car for 23K, yes, you read that right. I'm a fool for trading it in but alas, sometimes we all do dumb things.

Fast forward 8 years and I was on the hype train for the Twins. To me, at the time, it seemed liked the S2K we never got from Honda. A small, light, RWD, sports car that was not a convertible. I owned my FRS for about the same length of time as my S2K, both were DD, and both were fun cars but the FRS never felt "special" to me and my biggest let down was the FA20.

I know Dezoris/Savagegeese was brought up earlier in this thread and like him or hate him, he recent;y did another review of the 86 as this is the last MY for the Twins. I think he was pretty honest in his review and he actually spoke pretty highly of what the chassis has evolved into. His biggest complaint, with which I agree, is that the car came with the wrong engine from the start.

I know this is subjective and I understand the economics of it, but when you actually compare what the S2K and Twins came with from the factory, you have to give the nod to the S2K. I understand that if you compare real world dollars factoring in inflation and initial cost, the S2K is a more expensive car however when you actually consider what that car came with from the factory, it seems like a real bargain compared to the Twins.

Toyota/Subaru jointly developed this car and yet the cost cutting was so extreme on every part of the car, it makes you wonder why they didn't at least spend the money on giving us a better engine. Kind of like a new Mustang, you get a great engine (at least with the 5.0 Coyote) but there's a lot left to be desired with the rest of the car.

I guess my final thoughts are this: if you want a newer car, with more modern creature comforts and more room to carry equipment and you don't want a convertible, then the Twins are probably the best option between the two.

However, if you want a car that is more raw, is the result of a Honda company that was at its prime in engineering and vision, and a superb chassis with a spectacular engine, then the S2K is probably a great choice. The other good news is that the S2K has hit the bottom of the depreciation curve and is only going up now. The downside is the S2K tax if you want to modify/tune the chassis.

I picked up my 2002 S2K 3 years ago now, 107,000 miles on it, bone stock, never modified, no accidents, and that's how I have been driving it for the last 3 years while I purchase parts to make a truly memorable S2K build (thanks @CounterSpace Garage I hate you and so does my bank account...i.e. my wife). I still enjoy driving the car in stock form, all these years later (I never modified my 2004 S2K) but I am really looking to push this car by making it an extreme version of what came from the factory. Now I'm just praying Honda will start making the hardtops again so I can buy one at a "reasonable" price point because the used market is absolutely insane on OEM hardtops.
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Old 05-06-2020, 10:07 PM   #38
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I know this is subjective and I understand the economics of it, but when you actually compare what the S2K and Twins came with from the factory, you have to give the nod to the S2K. I understand that if you compare real world dollars factoring in inflation and initial cost, the S2K is a more expensive car however when you actually consider what that car came with from the factory, it seems like a real bargain compared to the Twins.
Just out of curiosity, how would you compare the steering between the two? Most reviews I read and saw complained about the S2K steering feel.
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Old 05-06-2020, 10:45 PM   #39
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Just out of curiosity, how would you compare the steering between the two? Most reviews I read and saw complained about the S2K steering feel.
FT86 has better steering feel. Feels less "remote control". Honestly I liked the S2000's steering fine though, despite the negative press and coming from a manual rack 240Z street/track car. The FT86's feels better to me though.

I daily-drove and tracked my '01 AP1 from 2007 through 2017, BRZ replaced it. Obviously the S2000 has a lot more power, and I miss winding it up to 9000rpm! I don't miss the wind noise... I'm not a convertible guy anyway. For me, an S2000 fixed-roof coupe/hatch would be just about ideal. Except give it the ft86's additional seat and steering wheel adjustability! Fixed steering wheel and fixed vertical seat location were always a bit off for me, would've liked to lower the S2k seat a good inch and a half...
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Old 05-06-2020, 10:57 PM   #40
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Just out of curiosity, how would you compare the steering between the two? Most reviews I read and saw complained about the S2K steering feel.
As I never got to drive the Twins/S2K back to back (several years had elapsed between the two) it would be hard for me to comment, though I do remember the FRS having a very communicative steering feel. I have no complaints about the S2K steering, I do plan on adding the Spoon rigid bushings for the steering rack so any perceived deficiencies will probably be gone after that modification if I were to take an educated guess. Ironically, this is a relatively cheap mod for the S2K, with the Spoon Rigid Collar bushing kit costing around $125. (interestingly, Honda discontinued the OEM steering rack rubber bushings so at this time, you have to go aftermarket for these though Honda is reportedly going to start making some of the discontinued parts again)
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Old 05-06-2020, 11:01 PM   #41
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Just out of curiosity, how would you compare the steering between the two? Most reviews I read and saw complained about the S2K steering feel.
Maybe @CSG Mike and/or @CSG David can answer this question for you better than I can since they both have lots of seat time at the track in both cars.
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Old 05-07-2020, 12:35 AM   #42
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Bringing this thread back on-topic. I had a chance to do some extended canyon runs this morning in a friend's AP2 S2000. It's been a while since I drove one, but was immediately reminded how it's a fun lightweight, RWD car. I can see why people bring it up often when talking about the FR-S. For comparison purposes, we swapped back and forth with my track-modded FR-S to feel out the differences.

The first thing that surprised me was how stable the AP2 felt. I've spun once as a passenger in an AP1 (hogpen at VIR), and the AP2 was definitely not as quick to let go. The few times I could feel the rear end starting to rotate under power, it was exactly where I was expecting and fairly progressive. That's a good improvement over the AP1 anywhere other than possibly the track. I'd love to explore the AP1/AP2 differences a bit more on the track, but I would be very hesitant to push an AP1 as hard on any normal road.

The other thing that got highlighted quickly is how good the damping is on the RCE T2's I've got on the FR-S. Driven back-to-back with the OEM S2000 suspension, we agreed the T2's soaked up midcorner bumps like a champ. My friend was surprised when I told him the spring rates and described the damping as luxury/plush. Not sure I'd go that far having been rattled by them on some rough roads, but suffice to say I already liked them on the track and was actually more impressed by them in real-world canyon roads.

The AP2 F22C engine was not bad. The powerband doesn't really come on strong until 6500 RPM, but redline is 8000 RPM, so it feels like you have about 1500 RPM to play with before upshifting. This engine will punish you anywhere under 6000 RPM (vtec engagement), similar to the FR-S when you drop under 4500 RPM. Both mills are kind of peaky, but the S2000 even more so. I'd really like to try an AP1 to see if I'd prefer a wider but weaker powerband.

In terms of power, the stock AP2 was very similar to my FR-S on an e85 tune. We both thought the AP2 felt stronger (particularly top-end once it crests 6.5K RPM), but weren't sure so later we did a side-by-side pull from 15-80 mph. Surprisingly the FR-S pulled slightly ahead in 1st and held the gap. I think stock AP2's are in the 205-210 whp range, so unclear what's going on. Maybe aero drag from the top down or the slightly heavier curb weight. My friend said the clutch delay valve also slowed his 1-2 upshift, which is definitely noticeable when you drive the car so I can believe that. Probably doesn't help that the 15 mph start puts the S2000 in the middle of its pre-VTEC torque dip.

Overall I really enjoyed the S2000. Not sure they're worth the crazy money they go for, but hype aside, it's another fun, light, high-strung car from Japan. The S2000, RX-8, FR-S/BRZ, and ND Miata all feel like different ways to skin the same cat.
Your description makes it sound like your friend's AP2 has the following:

- much larger tire stagger than AP1
- worn out dampers


- top down has a HUGE effect on drag
- A stock AP2 is about neck and neck with a Ace header + E85, assuming both cars are shifted similarly. The S2k isn't that fast, and weighs more.
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