Cobb Accessport for BRZ/FRS

[Hanni_0176]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Tristan,
Could you tell me what channels you would need in order to be satisfied with tuning via OFT? I can probably have them added by the end of the week. I agree that ecutek is *currently* the only player in the game that can control boost within the factory ecu. I suspect they re enabled the vestigial boost control tables that are functional in the turbo subaru models. And I suspect it is only a matter of time before opensourcers do the same. At the end of the day, no single company can compete with a sizeable group of clever computer programmers doing development for fun. This has been the case in the Evo and WRX markets and will likely be the case in this one as well.

This.

When you get alot of smart people together doing something that they enjoy doing as a hobby, alot of innovation and progress tends to get made. When a product is only being developed for profit, oftentimes corners get cut and etc.

While I understand that in some cases and/or for some products, there absolutely must be a big profit in order to do the R&D necessary to produce a quality product (especially if it's a risky prospect)... but this is not the case with tuning, since data itself isn't a tangible (physical) product and doesn't require a big capital investment to produce. Basically, tuning is a service not a product. As long as there are enthusiasts out there willing to produce quality work for free, then that's what it will cost. That being said, I'm perfectly content paying a local tuner some cash to provide me with a quality custom tune.

PS: I'm all for the OFT providing incentives for other tuners to use their hardware. This sort of thing is necessary for FI applications using the OFT. I have the OFT now, and would go with another tuning solution once I go FI in a few years if I had to, but I would prefer to be able to stick with the OFT if I could.

[qoncept]

Originally Posted by Circuit Motorsports

[FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black]-Real data-logging (it still boggles my mind that people are running tunes, and have been, without being able to datalog to confirm the cars running condition if a problem arises)

This seems like a pretty dubious comment to me. How many of your customers are datalogging on the way home? How many of them have any idea what they are looking at? How many of them even have the means to datalog on their own?

OTS tunes have been used for years and years. Even my uncle who keeps asking if I'm going to "chip" my car knows that. In most cases you're probably safer with that than a custom tune.

[Circuit Motorsports]

Originally Posted by qoncept

This seems like a pretty dubious comment to me. How many of your customers are datalogging on the way home? How many of them have any idea what they are looking at? How many of them even have the means to datalog on their own?

OTS tunes have been used for years and years. Even my uncle who keeps asking if I'm going to "chip" my car knows that. In most cases you're probably safer with that than a custom tune.

If someone gets a tune from us in person then we are tuning, logging, monitoring and tuning some more. We make sure the car is 100% before the customer take it home. So there is no need for "logging on the way home."

In the off chance the customer sees an issue arise later on we can ask them for a datalog, just to be sure everything is OK.

However with an eTune the only way to be sure the tune is running correctly is to get a datalog. Otherwise it's guessing, and guessing with a tune can be really bad haha.

Now if you're using this to Tune you OWN car, which is the whole point of opensource really, you better be sure you can datalog

Now if you go with an OTS map (off-the-shelf), you are assuming the vendor has done enough research and tuning, and is giving you a large margin of safety to run OK on your car with zero modification. Especially if the vendor is giving you a map and not asking for a log afterwards.

That's good for some people, most actually. But be aware that a "margin of safety" means less power. That's where a custom tune comes in.


-Tristan

[King Tut]

Originally Posted by qoncept

OTS tunes have been used for years and years. Even my uncle who keeps asking if I'm going to "chip" my car knows that. In most cases you're probably safer with that than a custom tune.

Alot has changed since the days of "chipping" cars as well. The sensativity of the ECU to how the airflow goes across the MAF sensor or what kind of IATs the car is seeing can greatly change the fueling requirements. It isn't like back in the day where you just lean out the top end and throw some more timing at the car in the form of a chip from Superchips or JET and call it a day. The highly modified cars that can really benefit from a true tune will work better on a custom tune than an OTS tune.

[yuicebox]

Originally Posted by King Tut

The highly modified cars that can really benefit from a true tune will work better on a custom tune than an OTS tune.

Of course dude. I don't think anyone here is going to argue that an OTS tune is better than a real custom tune that's set up for your exact car... But at the same time, OTS tunes are acceptable for those not looking for maximum performance with a high level of modifications.

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Tristan,
Could you tell me what channels you would need in order to be satisfied with tuning via OFT? I can probably have them added by the end of the week.

@Circuit Motorsports - You missed a great opportunity to contribute here, figured I'd remind you.

[qoncept]

Originally Posted by King Tut

The highly modified cars that can really benefit from a true tune will work better on a custom tune than an OTS tune.

Right, but anyone with a highly modified car is usually going to understand that. The other 99% of us are throwing a header and catback on the car, and, IMO, end up safer with an OTS tune that's had many miles of testing under many different conditions than a tune based on an hour on the dyno.

[Shiv@Openflash]

Originally Posted by qoncept

Right, but anyone with a highly modified car is usually going to understand that. The other 99% of us are throwing a header and catback on the car, and, IMO, end up safer with an OTS tune that's had many miles of testing under many different conditions than a tune based on an hour on the dyno.

This

[King Tut]

Originally Posted by qoncept

Right, but anyone with a highly modified car is usually going to understand that. The other 99% of us are throwing a header and catback on the car, and, IMO, end up safer with an OTS tune that's had many miles of testing under many different conditions than a tune based on an hour on the dyno.

I won't disagree with all of that. The person that is just throwing a header and catback on the car probably won't benefit at all from a custom tune and an OTS tune would be just fine. I don't believe that 99% of the BRZ/FR-S crowd is doing that however. I guess I look at these things more from a forced induction standpoint.

[qoncept]

Originally Posted by King Tut

I won't disagree with all of that. The person that is just throwing a header and catback on the car probably won't benefit at all from a custom tune and an OTS tune would be just fine. I don't believe that 99% of the BRZ/FR-S crowd is doing that however. I guess I look at these things more from a forced induction standpoint.

I think we agree there is a place for both. The danger in OTS tunes is people who don't use the right one. It seems pretty simple to me but apparently it happens a lot.

There was a guy nearby who using his dad's garage to swap a EJ hybrid in to his WRX and needed to have it tuned. Like, he needed it flashed, but had no way to flash it himself and had no connections the day before he had to drive back home out of town and go to work. I got there and he had a woefully mismatched tune he wanted to flash. He had modified injectors, a bigger turbo and different heads and wanted to use a basemap he found online.

[Circuit Motorsports]

Originally Posted by yuicebox

Of course dude. I don't think anyone here is going to argue that an OTS tune is better than a real custom tune that's set up for your exact car... But at the same time, OTS tunes are acceptable for those not looking for maximum performance with a high level of modifications.



@Circuit Motorsports - You missed a great opportunity to contribute here, figured I'd remind you.

I know Shiv has noted what the data logging can and can't do, from the few things he listed it can't do right now I know it wouldn't work for us.

I would have to go through what's not available and make a list, haven;t had time to do that.

Originally Posted by qoncept

Right, but anyone with a highly modified car is usually going to understand that. The other 99% of us are throwing a header and catback on the car, and, IMO, end up safer with an OTS tune that's had many miles of testing under many different conditions than a tune based on an hour on the dyno.

If you're paying a tuner to make you a custom map, and all he's giving you is an hour of his time on the dyno, you need a new tuner

When we tune a car it gets 4-6 hours of our time. You leave with the best, safest and most solid tune you can buy. If you want to compare a real professional custom tune with an OTS map for safety, you need to make sure you are using the right tuner for comparison.

[qoncept]

Originally Posted by Circuit Motorsports

If you're paying a tuner to make you a custom map, and all he's giving you is an hour of his time on the dyno, you need a new tuner

When we tune a car it gets 4-6 hours of our time. You leave with the best, safest and most solid tune you can buy. If you want to compare a real professional custom tune with an OTS map for safety, you need to make sure you are using the right tuner for comparison.

What I've seen is professional tuners letting things slip, though most people don't really pick up on it. I'm not talking about you specifically, I don't know that you've said these things. And this is obviously all thrown out the window if you have major, atypical changes, but:

1) Discussing why should get a custom tune:
Having your car custom tuned gets you all these wonderful gains and safety.

2) Discussing why tunes should be considered IP and protected:
The cost for custom tunes is so high because we've spent so much time tweaking our tunes across 8000 cars and we're not going to just give that away.

The two just don't jive. What #2 really tells me is that professional tuners are basically just giving you an OTS tune they've created, and maybe throwing your car on the dyno or driving around the block for validation. It says if you don't have an atypical setup, a custom tune isn't necessary.

I get that there are subtle differences between different headers and intakes and whatever. But I also know how sophisticated our ECUs are. For mild, common mods to our cars, the ECU can more than compensate for the negligible differences.

Say, for instance, I had you tune my car with a Borla UEL header. Then I decided I'd rather have a Nameless UEL header and brought it back to you to retune. What changes, in general terms, do you suspect you'd have to make to my tune?

[Circuit Motorsports]

Originally Posted by qoncept

What I've seen is professional tuners letting things slip, though most people don't really pick up on it. I'm not talking about you specifically, I don't know that you've said these things. And this is obviously all thrown out the window if you have major, atypical changes, but:

1) Discussing why should get a custom tune:
Having your car custom tuned gets you all these wonderful gains and safety.

2) Discussing why tunes should be considered IP and protected:
The cost for custom tunes is so high because we've spent so much time tweaking our tunes across 8000 cars and we're not going to just give that away.

The two just don't jive. What #2 really tells me is that professional tuners are basically just giving you an OTS tune they've created, and maybe throwing your car on the dyno or driving around the block for validation. It says if you don't have an atypical setup, a custom tune isn't necessary.

I get that there are subtle differences between different headers and intakes and whatever. But I also know how sophisticated our ECUs are. For mild, common mods to our cars, the ECU can more than compensate for the negligible differences.

Say, for instance, I had you tune my car with a Borla UEL header. Then I decided I'd rather have a Nameless UEL header and brought it back to you to retune. What changes, in general terms, do you suspect you'd have to make to my tune?

Wow...OK....

Well, It sounds like you are basically saying that all tuners have the same tune, and they all give you this same tune OTS tune, and then just dyno the car for show and that's it.

If that's how you feel, then, I don't think anything I can say here will change your mind....but you are completely wrong. Sorry.

As far the the factory ECU, it is sophisticated, and it can change to a degree based on differences in the environment and mods you put on. However it can't compensate enough for some mods and you will end up running too rich, or too lean, and to lean is really bad.

Also, it will not add power. It's not designed that way, it's actually the opposite. If you put on an exhaust you might gain 1-2 hp, but the computer does not learn form it and tune itself to give you the power you could get from it. You need a tune do that.

Dsport did a great write-up a couple months back on different mods for the 86 and how the ECU affects it. Basically the computer uses a torque limiter algorithm to ensure the car does not make any more power than a certain percentage over stock power, this is for safety reasons. Don't believe me? Go pick up the back issue.

So if you add mods you literally need a tune to get any real gains from them. You would also be ensuring the mods haven't caused the car too run too rich or too lean, which is where the safety aspect of it comes in.

If you want us to prove all this to you, we will gladly do so

[qoncept]

Originally Posted by Circuit Motorsports

Wow...OK....

Short version:

Say, for instance, I had you tune my car with a Borla UEL header. Then I decided I'd rather have a Nameless UEL header and brought it back to you to retune. What changes, in general terms, do you suspect you'd have to make to my tune?

[Circuit Motorsports]

Originally Posted by qoncept

Short version:

See post above, I had to edit for misspellings while you were posting.