Cooling Dilemmas

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Dirty coolers are worse than smaller openings. Rally cars need their coolers protected.

Again, widen your scope.

What happens if mud gets on a cooler?

Rallying is done on all surfaces including tarmac and dry dirt with no real difference to the bumpers, but generally mud isn’t an issue because the cars are racing staggered in a time trial, so there isn’t really a lot of traffic for mud clogging the bumpers.

Your point really doesn’t help the argument that maximal airflow is necessary. Apparently, according to you, rally cars need to avoid mud so much that they blocked off airflow, and yet, they are still able to successfully compete in rally racing with high horsepower motors and mud on the front with small openings. Those Group B cars were pushing 500hp. Just saying. Seems like all this fuss is for nothing, but maybe someone might want to fight for an extra 3-5 horsepower, or what type of losses are we really expecting from an oil cooler in front of an intercooler?

[czellers]

[QUOTE=Irace86.2.0;3407695]Rallying is done on all surfaces including tarmac and dry dirt with no real difference to the bumpers, but generally mud isn’t an issue because the cars are racing staggered in a time trial, so there isn’t really a lot of traffic for mud clogging the bumpers.

Your point really doesn’t help the argument that maximal airflow is necessary. Apparently, according to you, rally cars need to avoid mud so much that they blocked off airflow, and yet, they are still able to successfully compete in rally racing with high horsepower motors and mud on the front with small openings. Those Group B cars were pushing 500hp. Just saying. Seems like all this fuss is for nothing, but maybe someone might want to fight for an extra 3-5 horsepower, or what type of losses are we really expecting from an oil cooler in front of an intercooler?

#1 i think you're overthinking this a bit.
#2 the picture you included has a top mount intercooler, which in all honesty server to suggest my original point and support my original theory. The top mount is in no way impeding air flow to a front-side mount oil cooler or the radiator in the middle.

When you ask "what type of losses are we really expecting from an oil cooler in front of an intercooler?"

Well.... that depends on ambient temp/humidity/drive duration/driving style. Lets say I want to aggressively cruise the blue ridge parkway in the NC mountains with friends for 5 hours straight in the summer.. There's ZERO chance of "overcooling" so WTF should I cover half my intercooler OR should I look at another option to KEEP the best airflow to the radiator AND intercooler (also like many have said, im not sure I buy that theory on the grounds that in 99% of driving conditions thats just a non-factor)... basically why the same car can be sold for winter use in Fargo ND or Miami...

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by czellers

#1 i think you're overthinking this a bit.
#2 the picture you included has a top mount intercooler, which in all honesty server to suggest my original point and support my original theory. The top mount is in no way impeding air flow to a front-side mount oil cooler or the radiator in the middle.

When you ask "what type of losses are we really expecting from an oil cooler in front of an intercooler?"

Well.... that depends on ambient temp/humidity/drive duration/driving style. Lets say I want to aggressively cruise the blue ridge parkway in the NC mountains with friends for 5 hours straight in the summer.. There's ZERO chance of "overcooling" so WTF should I cover half my intercooler OR should I look at another option to KEEP the best airflow to the radiator AND intercooler (also like many have said, im not sure I buy that theory on the grounds that in 99% of driving conditions thats just a non-factor)... basically why the same car can be sold for winter use in Fargo ND or Miami...

#1: My point is the OP is overthinking this a bit.
#2: That 2007 WRC rally car has a FMIC with a top mount air intake, but that doesn’t really matter because the point of the picture was to illustrate that the bumper doesn’t get peppered with mud like the sides that are behind the wheels. I could have used an Evo or something too where the FMIC is plainly visible, low and exposed.




The comment about overcooling was missed on you. The point wasn’t to say overcooling is a reason to put the oil cooler in front of the intercooler; it was to suggest that there is enough cooling available with the given area, so much so, that restricted air flow was sometimes preferable.

Remove overcooling from the vocabulary because I already conceded that idea had little merit. What loses to the cooling effect of the intercooler, or what losses to horsepower could be seen from putting an oil cooler in front of the intercooler, because the premise of this thread is that dirty (warmed) air will leave the oil cooler and hit the intercooler, apparently, significantly reducing the effectiveness of the intercooler?

Here is a HKS side mount intercooler. It requires longer oil lines, and it doesn’t get the airflow that a front mount oil cooler would get. It also blocks a good place for brake ducting, but it could be used. Some would say, “That’s...not great airflow.” All I’m trying to say is people shouldn’t create a bigger problem trying to fix a perceived problem that is more significant subjectively than it is objectively and that could in fact be worse.

https://www.ft86club.com/forums/atta...9&d=1417035637

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by czellers

#1 i think you're overthinking this a bit.
#2 the picture you included has a top mount intercooler, which in all honesty server to suggest my original point and support my original theory. The top mount is in no way impeding air flow to a front-side mount oil cooler or the radiator in the middle.

When you ask "what type of losses are we really expecting from an oil cooler in front of an intercooler?"

Well.... that depends on ambient temp/humidity/drive duration/driving style. Lets say I want to aggressively cruise the blue ridge parkway in the NC mountains with friends for 5 hours straight in the summer.. There's ZERO chance of "overcooling" so WTF should I cover half my intercooler OR should I look at another option to KEEP the best airflow to the radiator AND intercooler (also like many have said, im not sure I buy that theory on the grounds that in 99% of driving conditions thats just a non-factor)... basically why the same car can be sold for winter use in Fargo ND or Miami...

Fun fact. The hood scoop on the Subaru Impreza WRC is actually not for a TMIC, but for the air intake!

[czellers]

[QUOTE=Irace86.2.0;3407771]#1: My point is the OP is overthinking this a bit.
#2: That 2007 WRC rally car has a FMIC with a top mount air intake, but that doesn’t really matter because the point of the picture was to illustrate that the bumper doesn’t get peppered with mud like the sides that are behind the wheels. I could have used an Evo or something too where the FMIC is plainly visible, low and exposed.



The comment about overcooling was missed on you. The point wasn’t to say overcooling is a reason to put the oil cooler in front of the intercooler; it was to suggest that there is enough cooling available with the given area, so much so, that restricted air flow was sometimes preferable.

Remove overcooling from the vocabulary because I already conceded that idea had little merit. What loses to the cooling effect of the intercooler, or what losses to horsepower could be seen from putting an oil cooler in front of the intercooler, because the premise of this thread is that dirty (warmed) air will leave the oil cooler and hit the intercooler, apparently, significantly reducing the effectiveness of the intercooler?

Here is a HKS side mount intercooler. It requires longer oil lines, and it doesn’t get the airflow that a front mount oil cooler would get. It also blocks a good place for brake ducting, but it could be used. Some would say, “That’s...not great airflow.” All I’m trying to say is people shouldn’t create a bigger problem trying to fix a perceived problem that is more significant subjectively than it is objectively and that could in fact be worse.

For starters, I dont know/care where this whole rally inspired stuff is coming from but i never said shit about mud or bumpers or anything, but aside from the evo im not too sure of many factory turbo cars where they didnt have a thought out design for cooling elements.. Heres the deal, as i see it. There no harm in a thought out design. nothing wrong with off the shelf. If you're a buy it an slap it on type person, go for it.

Option one, a 'modestly' sized intercooler (think the size of the 300ZX or some of the BMW side mounts) so that you could mount both out front side by side and possibly have a shred of radiator exposed.

Option two, stack them all up in the front and live your best life.

With a side mount intercooler or oil cooler, yes its all about air flow and plumbing clearances. I see you posted a picture that seems to speak to the small size of the factory hole/opening near the fog light.... SO WHAT, new bumper, cut/fab/bondo the existing... there are options.. I dont give a shit about maintaining the factory 'look' of the bumper. I think its called "function over form"

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

Rallying is done on all surfaces including tarmac and dry dirt with no real difference to the bumpers, but generally mud isn’t an issue because the cars are racing staggered in a time trial, so there isn’t really a lot of traffic for mud clogging the bumpers.

Your point really doesn’t help the argument that maximal airflow is necessary. Apparently, according to you, rally cars need to avoid mud so much that they blocked off airflow, and yet, they are still able to successfully compete in rally racing with high horsepower motors and mud on the front with small openings. Those Group B cars were pushing 500hp. Just saying. Seems like all this fuss is for nothing, but maybe someone might want to fight for an extra 3-5 horsepower, or what type of losses are we really expecting from an oil cooler in front of an intercooler?

Group B pushed 500hp and 80's F1 cars pushed 1500hp. Ultimately, irellevent.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Group B pushed 500hp and 80's F1 cars pushed 1500hp. Ultimately, irellevent.

Maybe the point was lost on you, but with increased power comes increased heat production, which requires increased cooling demands, and yet, those Group B cars with 500hp were doing fine during extreme racing with cooling setups that didn't require massive bumper openings. *Thus*, I think it could be overkill to concern one's self with whether the oil cooler is putting hot air on part of the intercooler on a 300hp, street car (hypothetically speaking). Just saying.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by czellers

For starters, I dont know/care where this whole rally inspired stuff is coming from but i never said shit about mud or bumpers or anything, but aside from the evo im not too sure of many factory turbo cars where they didnt have a thought out design for cooling elements.. Heres the deal, as i see it. There no harm in a thought out design. nothing wrong with off the shelf. If you're a buy it an slap it on type person, go for it.

Option one, a 'modestly' sized intercooler (think the size of the 300ZX or some of the BMW side mounts) so that you could mount both out front side by side and possibly have a shred of radiator exposed.

Option two, stack them all up in the front and live your best life.

With a side mount intercooler or oil cooler, yes its all about air flow and plumbing clearances. I see you posted a picture that seems to speak to the small size of the factory hole/opening near the fog light.... SO WHAT, new bumper, cut/fab/bondo the existing... there are options.. I dont give a shit about maintaining the factory 'look' of the bumper. I think its called "function over form"

For starters, please learn to quote effectively.

You can read, right? Follow the thread conversation. Mike and I were discussing the merits of airflow and cooler setups, and I brought up rally cars to illustrate how they did fine with relatively little, comparably speaking, airflow, yet they are high-horsepower, extreme, race vehicles, which suggests people are overplaying the significance of cooler placement for a street car.

Follow my questions and points on post #8 and #24. What are you plans for the car? I agree that you can do anything, but your original post, and unless I missed it, nothing since that original post has stated your goals for the car. Someone could have answered your question by suggesting that you build a custom bumper with a V-mount radiator/intercooler/oil cooler setup with air flow dams that channel air to the coolers and dump the air up like the setup below and to use the two sides for brake ducting, but the best setup may not be a financially reasonable setup, nor may it be necessary if your goals are for a 300hp turbo setup that is just for street use (hypothetically). If you want sound advice then it would help if you made it clear what your plans are for the car. What are you horsepower goals and driving demands because that will dictate cooling needs?

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

Maybe the point was lost on you, but with increased power comes increased heat production, which requires increased cooling demands, and yet, those Group B cars with 500hp were doing fine during extreme racing with cooling setups that didn't require massive bumper openings. *Thus*, I think it could be overkill to concern one's self with whether the oil cooler is putting hot air on part of the intercooler on a 300hp, street car (hypothetically speaking). Just saying.

Hot air heats up cooler air.

I don't know why you're making it so complicated.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Hot air heats up cooler air.

I don't know why you're making it so complicated.

Oil cooler small, intercooler big.

I don't know why you're making it so complicated.



The air leaving the oil cooler is probably not much different than the ambient air, especially at higher speeds, so the air going into the intercooler from the oil cooler is insignificantly warmer and, for all intensive purposes, is still just as cool air for the intercooler.

[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

The air leaving the oil cooler is probably not much different than the ambient air, especially at higher speeds, so the air going into the intercooler from the oil cooler is insignificantly warmer and, for all intensive purposes, is still just as cool air for the intercooler.

I think you would be surprised, it sheds quite a bit of heat. If I didn't just kill one of my thermocouples I'd test it on my NA car. Though to test it properly I would need to build a duct off the back of the oil cooler to prevent ambient air from mixing with it to get a better reading.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG

I think you would be surprised, it sheds quite a bit of heat. If I didn't just kill one of my thermocouples I'd test it on my NA car. Though to test it properly I would need to build a duct off the back of the oil cooler to prevent ambient air from mixing with it to get a better reading.

I think it is worth noting that at 65mph the car is traveling at 1144 inches per second, which is how fast the air is traveling through a heat exchanger. Meaning, each molecule of air has 0.00087 seconds per inch to transfer heat from the core to itself. For a two inch oil cooler, that is 0.0017 seconds of time to pick up as much heat as it can.

I think everyone has waved their hand through a candle or fire, or I'm sure anyone can wave their hand at different speeds through a hairdryer and experience the drop in heat exchange felt as the speed of their hand through the hot air increases. Do this experiment in front of a yardstick for speed calculations. Aim for going from one end to the other end of the yardstick in 6 seconds and then 3 seconds, which is 0.5 and 1 foot per second, respectively. Now try for 1 second, which is 3 feet per second or 2mph. Now go as fast as possible. Your hand probably won't get to the speed of a pitcher's throw, but say your hand got up to 65mph for the sake of the example, did you even feel much difference in air temperature? You felt the airstream, but was the temperature exchange perceptible?

The point: the dirty air leaving the oil cooler is perhaps not much warmer than the air entering the intercooler, so perhaps an oil cooler that is covering a quarter of the frontal area of an intercooler is not killing the performance of the intercooler.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

I think it is worth noting that at 65mph the car is traveling at 1144 inches per second, which is how fast the air is traveling through a heat exchanger. Meaning, each molecule of air has 0.00087 seconds per inch to transfer heat from the core to itself. For a two inch oil cooler, that is 0.0017 seconds of time to pick up as much heat as it can.

I think everyone has waved their hand through a candle or fire, or I'm sure anyone can wave their hand at different speeds through a hairdryer and experience the drop in heat exchange felt as the speed of their hand through the hot air increases. Do this experiment in front of a yardstick for speed calculations. Aim for going from one end to the other end of the yardstick in 6 seconds and then 3 seconds, which is 0.5 and 1 foot per second, respectively. Now try for 1 second, which is 3 feet per second or 2mph. Now go as fast as possible. Your hand probably won't get to the speed of a pitcher's throw, but say your hand got up to 65mph for the sake of the example, did you even feel much difference in air temperature? You felt the airstream, but was the temperature exchange perceptible?

The point: the dirty air leaving the oil cooler is perhaps not much warmer than the air entering the intercooler, so perhaps an oil cooler that is covering a quarter of the frontal area of an intercooler is not killing the performance of the intercooler.

You do you.

I'll give you an unrelated, but anecdotal example. The 30C coolant in my computer's water loop results in air that is noticeably warm coming out of it. This is with a small 120mm (IPPC) fan blowing air through a small radiator. While not a perfect measurement, my tire pyrometer sitting in that air stream measures 30C.

This is with an ambient temp of ~15C at the time I did this.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

You do you.

I'll give you an unrelated, but anecdotal example. The 30C coolant in my computer's water loop results in air that is noticeably warm coming out of it. This is with a small 120mm (IPPC) fan blowing air through a small radiator. While not a perfect measurement, my tire pyrometer sitting in that air stream measures 30C.

This is with an ambient temp of ~15C at the time I did this.

How fast is the air coming out of the heat exchanger? The slower it comes out, the longer the air molecules have to transfer heat. Here is an idea: take a hairdryer and turn it to "cool", so it only blows ambient air, and then blow that air behind the fan, so the air is coming out much faster. Now repeat your measurements.

If that example won't work then slowly breath out against your hand and then breath in quickly and breath out forcefully. Notice the difference in temperature?

Again, I chimed in because there is a cost in time and money to reinvent the wheel chasing a problem that may not exist. Maybe the idea of saving time and money on something that may have no gains is wasted on some people in this thread, but I think it is worth mentioning for anyone considering or reconsidering their setup.