2022 GR86 Premium MT & AT Comparo

[Lantanafrs2]

I see some 4.3 conversations being tried

[OwlDance]

Originally Posted by Kona61

That is highly false about the ZF. The performance tuned versions are magnitudes better than the Aisin. I’m not really how you came to the conclusion they are the same. Jarring? I think not. The only shift that gets odd is a low speed constant throttle 2 to 1 shift. That is the only slow shift and it still is not “jarring”.

Maybe you’re comparing it to a Dodge Ram or something…

I gain nothing by lying on the internet because those are my experiences and I take pride in analyzing shit in detail. You're welcome to compare with detailed anectdotes. The digital displays are a lie for shifting speeds (because you can literally watch the RPMs drop only for the engine noise to follow half an entire second later and the car buck as well in the ZF cars I've driven), and frankly so is every tachometer, just that the 86s' lies less. There was a video going around in one of the subforums recently of a supercharged 86 shifting later than the tacho suggests - something I haven't experienced on NA but lends credit to that point. While I would take an 8HP every day over a 960E, I also don't think it's this super duper performance destroying trans people make it out to be.

The nicest transmission I've managed to get some street time with is whatever aisin 8spd is in the RX350. It's smooth, likes to downshift readily and extremely quickly, compared to the AT modes of most other Zf8hp BMWs which are very reluctant and practically demand you to be lugging the engine before they start to downshift. Driving it manually didn't feel any different than the ZF8HP at cruising speeds, but like the 960E and ZF at higher RPM, you can't avoid the jarringness and delay as the transfluid does its magic working whatever the hell's inside an AT trans. The gradience in difference felt consummerate to the difference in gear lengths.

That is to say the ZF isn't a miracle AT transmission and the 960E isn't some piece of shit either, and that in conjunction with my experiences, most good quality transmissions feel and function almost identically, with only small practice(per the aisin 8spd anecdote.) Ultimately they are all the same technology and in practice are similar to each other, and that in my experience, the only major differences in feel come from the length in gearing - the 960Es stupid long gearing 6spd, vs any 8spd. And that's something you can't tune out, even if I think the 6spd could be improved.

Anyways with regards to quoted shift times, I'm 90% sure I read or heard in a video somewhere the 960E on the 86 was quoted for 250MS shift times. Which I guarantee is only for upshifts. I guarantee the ZF8HP is using the quoted 200MS shift time for their upshifts too lol. Those numbers don't really mean anything to me in practice and I think most would agree if you've driven those transmissions for any amount of time.

[nikitopo]

Originally Posted by Ernest72

I have not driven one, but I don’t think having skin in the game matters. It’s not like he’s trying to sell his first Gen to you. Every review says it’s better including him. The only way it’s not better is when your current car is paid off and the new one will cost you a significant amount of money for basically a very similar experience. They all said the essence is the same.

...
Not really trying to convince anyone one way or the other. I hope many people buy the new ones.

Exactly.

Originally Posted by Sport-Tech

No he's not trying to sell me his car but everyone has their prejudices based on their experiences and ownership is a well known unconscious bias generator.

Usually it is the other way around.

Check here as a reminder example how a HUGE improvement the '17 BRZ was considered in comparison to the '13-'16. Afterwards things were settled down and people recognized that it wasn't that much of a difference.

Not trying to convince either way. I hope people to buy the new ones and for sure the day to day driveability will be better with the bigger engine. After all this is what some people were asking? Let's hope that the same people will now buy and not complain about the price ...

[CincyJohn]

Originally Posted by Yoshoobaroo

The stats absolutely do matter because they show that over half of people buying these sports cars want a manual transmission. This includes over 90% of them that will never even see an autocross let alone a track.

These people that claim you should only buy a manual for track time ignore the fact that over half of us actually prefer to drive the manual on the street, yes even in traffic. Cause it’s more fun to us. For me it’s not even close. I have NEVER driven an automatic car that didn’t disappoint compared to a manual.

Exactly - never been on a track and probably not likely to. I am 50 years old and have only ever owned one non-manual in my life (Infiniti J30 1998 - 2002 - I liked that car but it literally was the worst of both worlds, RWD and terrible in snow, rain, with none of the advantages).

In any event, it's not about performance for most manual drivers. You either love to drive a manual or you don't. You either need to have a manual car as your daily driver or you don't. There are certainly exceptions to this rule, but obviously you and I are in this group. BTW, this is why the new Corvette is SOOOO disappointing - to go from a car that not too long ago was only offered in manual to one that you can't even get in a manual is bizarre. It's bad enough we are going to lose manuals as internal combustion heads out the door - no reason to speed it up in a car that clearly should have it.

It's like after they styled it and realized they were going to lose half of their hardcore fans (I personally love the styling - not a fan of most newer Corvettes), they said "Let's see if we can raise that to 75%." I don't get it.

[Ernest72]

Originally Posted by CincyJohn

Exactly - never been on a track and probably not likely to. I am 50 years old and have only ever owned one non-manual in my life (Infiniti J30 1998 - 2002 - I liked that car but it literally was the worst of both worlds, RWD and terrible in snow, rain, with none of the advantages).

In any event, it's not about performance for most manual drivers. You either love to drive a manual or you don't. You either need to have a manual car as your daily driver or you don't. There are certainly exceptions to this rule, but obviously you and I are in this group. BTW, this is why the new Corvette is SOOOO disappointing - to go from a car that not too long ago was only offered in manual to one that you can't even get in a manual is bizarre. It's bad enough we are going to lose manuals as internal combustion heads out the door - no reason to speed it up in a car that clearly should have it.

It's like after they styled it and realized they were going to lose half of their hardcore fans (I personally love the styling - not a fan of most newer Corvettes), they said "Let's see if we can raise that to 75%." I don't get it.

Car companies need to make tough choices. And let’s face it, you can love manual over your own children, but you are severely in the minority for the whole car market. So when bean-counting execs get together, it’s easy to see where this is going. Add in EVs it gets worse. Also some day a generic version of the PDK will be cheaper. A BRZ with a PDK would entice mmany people because the auto is more versatile. The transmission is a personal choice really based on what you need. Unfortunately many make it a pissing contest on which is better.

[Yoshoobaroo]

I’ll take a manual over a PDK any day of the week. And Porsche’s manuals aren’t anywhere as good as the BRZ’s.

I’m not the only one when it comes to sports cars. 55% of twin owners buy manuals. In this segment the business case for the manual makes absolute sense.

[Ernest72]

Originally Posted by Yoshoobaroo

I’ll take a manual over a PDK any day of the week. And Porsche’s manuals aren’t anywhere as good as the BRZ’s.

I’m not the only one when it comes to sports cars. 55% of twin owners buy manuals. In this segment the business case for the manual makes absolute sense.

Yes PDK or MT is a personal choice, you have your preferences, others have theirs. Go to rennlist, this has been argued to death.

All I am saying is if you are an auto exec and you see that in a sports car segment only 55% are MT and the sports car segment is a couple percent compared to SUVs, crossovers and sedans. It’s an easy decision if you need to cut costs to cut the MT. I personally don’t see Subaru and Toyota doing it but things are changing and simplifying your supply chain goes a long way.

I also feel future EVs will have outstanding performance for a very cheap price. Although I think the engagement and fun will be diminished for sure.

[kaputt]

Originally Posted by Ernest72

All I am saying is if you are an auto exec and you see that in a sports car segment only 55% are MT and the sports car segment is a couple percent compared to SUVs, crossovers and sedans. It’s an easy decision if you need to cut costs to cut the MT. I personally don’t see Subaru and Toyota doing it but things are changing and simplifying your supply chain goes a long way.
.

Good thing you aren't an auto exec. An auto exec that cut a transmission option that makes up over half the sales of a particular model would be an idiot.

The cutting of manuals happens in cars that have/had take rates in the single digits.

[timurrrr]

Originally Posted by Yoshoobaroo

And Porsche’s manuals aren’t anywhere as good as the BRZ’s

Which Porsches have you driven? The 981 Boxster S I've driven had one of the best manuals I've driven, except for the tall FD. Certainly better than any BRZ I've seen.

[nikitopo]

Originally Posted by Yoshoobaroo

Porsche’s manuals aren’t anywhere as good as the BRZ’s.

Are you working for Subaru?

[Kona61]

Originally Posted by timurrrr

Which Porsches have you driven? The 981 Boxster S I've driven had one of the best manuals I've driven, except for the tall FD. Certainly better than any BRZ I've seen.

I know right… My mothers GT4 had one of the nicest manuals I’ve ever driven among cars like the S2000 and the FK8.

All these people are smoking crack in my opinion.

[Yoshoobaroo]

The 981 is still a cable shift mechanism like the 987 and 986. While improved over the sloppier 986/7 shifter, It still doesn’t feel quite as good as the direct linkage style on the BRZ. Combine that with the long travel and high pickup point of the clutch, in typical German fashion, and it’s not as good to drive as the manual on a BRZ/Miata/S2000.

The only way to make a cable shifter feel as good as a direct linkage is to use spherical bearings at the end of the cables. It can be done with aftermarket kits but OEM will always use bushings.

[Kona61]

Originally Posted by Yoshoobaroo

The 981 is still a cable shift mechanism like the 987 and 986. While improved over the sloppier 986/7 shifter, It still doesn’t feel quite as good as the direct linkage style on the BRZ. Combine that with the long travel and high pickup point of the clutch, in typical German fashion, and it’s not as good to drive as the manual on a BRZ/Miata/S2000.

The only way to make a cable shifter feel as good as a direct linkage is to use spherical bearings at the end of the cables. It can be done with aftermarket kits but OEM will always use bushings.

Well I’d disagree personally. Regardless, any of these are much better than 90% of manuals elsewhere. The ropey 2015+ WRX shifter comes to mind.

[Yoshoobaroo]

Originally Posted by Kona61

Well I’d disagree personally. Regardless, any of these are much better than 90% of manuals elsewhere. The ropey 2015+ WRX shifter comes to mind.

Haven’t driven that one but I’m sure the mechanism is quite a bit cheaper than on the BRZ or WRX STI.

It’s all subjective in the end but the consensus is that the clutch pedal and shifter in this car is fantastic.

Keep in mind some people actually like the sloppy 986/996 shifter, so YMMV based on what you’re used to. To some people a really tight mechanism will feel too notchy.